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Post by caiyi on Nov 22, 2014 1:55:21 GMT
I read this a few weeks ago. Don't know how true it is. The writer said Jin Yong actually dislike Zhao Min. The development of the first edition of HSDS was controlled by Jin Yong's second wife. Said wife forced Jin Yong to give Zhao Min a good ending and changed Zhou Ziruo to villain because ZZR is similar to Jin Yong's first love, while Zhao Min is similar to her. If that's the case, I don't know if I want to read the first edition of HSDS. xuanyuan3.blogspot.com/2011/03/blog-post.htmlI do remember though, when I watch HDSD 86 starring Tony Leung, I thought earlier Zhao Min was as ruthless as later Zhou Ziruo. So, they both commit similar among of sins and hurt as many people (maybe Zhao Min even more). So, how come Zhao Min get a good ending and Zhou Ziruo didn't? What do you guys think?
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Post by chefying on Nov 22, 2014 6:00:01 GMT
@caiyi, I cannot remember the ending as per the second edition of Heaven Sword and Dragon Sabre. I seem to recall Zhao Min and Zhang WuJi left the Centrals plains to wander around for the rest of their lives. Zhou Ziruo remained the leader of Emei Sect.
Indeed, they both did a lot of evil things. Did they do it solely for their own benefit, I wonder. Zhou Ziruo was made to swear a solemn oath by Mistress Exterminate. Did Zhou Ziruo have the courage to defy her vows and not do what she was told to do? She did not. She went on to do all she can to obtain the Dragon Sword and thence extract the Nine Yin Manual. Did she do this solely for the good of Emei? I feel she was doing this more out of spite since her wedding to Zhang Wuji was disrupted.
Zhao Min was ruthless, I agree. Did she kill anyone out of spite? I don't seem to recall. She did what she thought was best as a citizen and Princess of the Jin Dynasty.
What is your view on this?
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 22, 2014 7:21:48 GMT
both ZZR and ZM were shown to be way more politically savvy than ZWJ. and they'd have to be ruthless to get what they want. and it's just so easy to manipulate ZWJ.
i've only skimmed the 2nd edition of HSDS, so i can't say if there are any discrepancies in characterization. besides, JY would likely have smoothed those over from the 1st edition. do you know if he made further personality/motivational changes in the 3rd edition? THAT would be more telling, methinks.
neither ZZR nor ZM are particularly likeable, especially if you expect the female leads to conform to confucian ideals. it's one of the reasons why most people prefer XZ. but i don't think the point of creating these two is to make them likeable. so, as long as their actions are in line with their motivations, the storyline will make sense and lead to an inevitable conclusion.
my two-cents.
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Post by caiyi on Nov 26, 2014 1:16:03 GMT
Zhao Min did want to disfigure Zhou Zhiruo's face at one time. I don't remember why she didn't succeed. That's for personal reason and not for the greater good.
Also, I suspect that she purposely only show the golden hair to Zhang Wuji to make him go with her during his wedding ceremony was to spite ZZR. It's to show that ZWJ was willing to go with her because she asked him to.
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 26, 2014 7:09:09 GMT
ha, yes, they are both quite jealous females, aren't they? rather like WQQ. are petty heroines invariably drawn to wishy-washy heroes? JY seems to make a convincing case!
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Post by Admin on Nov 26, 2014 7:54:29 GMT
ZM and ZZR are both jealous females, and they both are vicious and cruel in their own ways. If ZM was more open with her wicked action, ZZR was more subtle. I don't like none of them. But if I have to choose, I would choose ZM cause she's more open in her ways.
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Post by chefying on Nov 27, 2014 6:53:43 GMT
ZM and ZZR are both jealous females, and they both are vicious and cruel in their own ways. If ZM was more open with her wicked action, ZZR was more subtle. I agree, Zhao Min was more transparent in her actions, while Zhou ZhiRuo was more subtle. Then again, it would be more difficult for Zhao Min to be subtle - she is known to be a Jin Princess, so her loyalty was questionable from day one. On the other hand, Zhou ZhiRuo was seen to be gentle and kind, and that cast a veil over her wicked ways. No one thought she could/would be cruel a total user.
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Post by galvatron prime on Nov 27, 2014 7:18:33 GMT
ZM and ZZR are both jealous females, and they both are vicious and cruel in their own ways. If ZM was more open with her wicked action, ZZR was more subtle. I agree, Zhao Min was more transparent in her actions, while Zhou ZhiRuo was more subtle. Then again, it would be more difficult for Zhao Min to be subtle - she is known to be a Jin Princess, so her loyalty was questionable from day one. On the other hand, Zhou ZhiRuo was seen to be gentle and kind, and that cast a veil over her wicked ways. No one thought she could/would be cruel a total user. I was told Zhao Min was a Yuan dynasty or Mongol Princess ,her Mongol name was Minmin Temür (敏敏特穆儿),not Jin princess or Jurchen princess which was dynasty ended before Zhao Min was even born? Am i right on this ? I think both are "good side" of Ah Chi 阿紫 from DGSD and "smarter" side of Guo Fu .
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Post by Admin on Nov 27, 2014 11:31:39 GMT
I agree, Zhao Min was more transparent in her actions, while Zhou ZhiRuo was more subtle. Then again, it would be more difficult for Zhao Min to be subtle - she is known to be a Jin Princess, so her loyalty was questionable from day one. On the other hand, Zhou ZhiRuo was seen to be gentle and kind, and that cast a veil over her wicked ways. No one thought she could/would be cruel a total user. I was told Zhao Min was a Yuan dynasty or Mongol Princess ,her Mongol name was Minmin Temür (敏敏特穆儿),not Jin princess or Jurchen princess which was dynasty ended before Zhao Min was even born? Am i right on this ? I think both are "good side" of Ah Chi 阿紫 from DGSD and "smarter" side of Guo Fu . Right. she's a Mongolian princess. Minmin Temur she was!
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Post by chefying on Nov 27, 2014 13:57:20 GMT
I was told Zhao Min was a Yuan dynasty or Mongol Princess ,her Mongol name was Minmin Temür (敏敏特穆儿),not Jin princess or Jurchen princess which was dynasty ended before Zhao Min was even born? Am i right on this ? Oops, you are right, galvatron prime, she's Mongolian. I got her mixed up with the foreigners from Legend of the Condor Heroes.
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Post by caiyi on Apr 30, 2015 12:02:23 GMT
Another question. Why did Yin Susu disguise as Zhang Cuishan when she massacred Dragon Courier Service people? What did the book say about this?
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Post by chefying on May 2, 2015 7:31:32 GMT
If I remember correctly, she did it out of fun. The consequences, however, were dire and severe. I think she had already dressed up as Zhang Cuishan when she went to place the order earlier on at the Dragon Courier Service/Dragon Gate Armed Escort Agency.
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Post by reinafu on May 2, 2015 14:08:06 GMT
From what I read in this thread, the book tells that Zhang Wu Ji and Zhao Min Min have a good ending and they wander in the mountains together at the end of the story ?
That's too bad that TVB didn't keep this good ending for the series, I was so sad for Zhang Wu Ji when he ends alone at the end of the last episode...
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Post by caiyi on May 3, 2015 13:56:54 GMT
If I remember correctly, she did it out of fun. The consequences, however, were dire and severe. I think she had already dressed up as Zhang Cuishan when she went to place the order earlier on at the Dragon Courier Service/Dragon Gate Armed Escort Agency. Wow, that is rather thoughtless of her. So, she has a liking for him, so, dress up as him. But, then, go and kill so many and brought all these trouble to him. Did she realise that she was still in disguise when she massacred the Dragon Gate Armed Escort Agency? I'm watch HDSD 2000 now. The series gave a different reason. In the series, Yin Susu purposely dressed up as Zhang Cushan when she massacred the Dragon Gate Armed Escort Agency so as the cause a clash between Wu Dang and Shaolin. She did this because a Shaolin student used used vicious poison to hurt her, so, she wanted Wu Dang to revenge for her. From what I read in this thread, the book tells that Zhang Wu Ji and Zhao Min Min have a good ending and they wander in the mountains together at the end of the story ? That's too bad that TVB didn't keep this good ending for the series, I was so sad for Zhang Wu Ji when he ends alone at the end of the last episode... Are you talking about the Adam Cheng version? I heard that due to audience's complain, TVB filmed a special episode where Zhang and Zhao reunit.
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Post by reinafu on May 3, 2015 17:35:56 GMT
Yes, I'm talking about Adam Cheng's version. Well, if there's an episode showing a happy ending of this series, where is it !!! I WANT IT !!!!!!!(enormous smile!)
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