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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 17:30:27 GMT
I'M ENJOYING THIS THREAD !!! I agree. siuyiu had put a lot of effort into it. As for my unorthodox mnemonics, let me clarify that I use the system primarily to recognise the word, and not so much for remembering its vocalisation. glad you both are having fun! and vocalization isn't always possible anyway, as i've mentioned. i should give examples of rebuses that look the same and yet the words themselves sound nothing alike!
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 17:34:14 GMT
ok, here's a nice little exercise! now that you've been armed with some basic words, have a look at this map of china and see how many of the provinces now have names you understand the meanings of. the capital cities are also included. and even if you don't know the character, i'm sure for many, you at least know what category the character belongs to and therefore some idea of its root meaning. NOTE: names in biggest font are provinces, smaller are cities. blue are bodies of water. in case it's too confusing to look at a bunch of characters on a map, here's the list of provinces, cities, and bodies of water: provinces江蘇 浙江 安徽 江西 湖北 湖南 四川 福建 新疆維吾爾自治區 廣東 廣西壯族自治區 雲南 貴州 河北 河南 山東 山西 陝西 甘肅 寧夏回族自治區 青海 遼寧 吉林 黑龍江 西藏自治區 內蒙古自治區 海南 台灣 (Taiwan) - heh, huge debate about whether this is a province cities (only listing major ones vs each provincial capital) 北京 南京 上海 天津 重慶 西安 成都 杭州 香港bodies of water黃河 長江 渤海 黃海 東海 南海 黑龍江
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 19:40:43 GMT
ok, here are some examples of proof that rebuses are bad guides to pronunciation. again, keep in mind that, due to tonality, many of these words can be pronounced differently depending on meaning. i'm noting the most common pitch as related to each character's most commonly used meaning. also, just giving some examples as opposed to the entire list of characters containing these rebuses. NOTE: i'll be cheating a little--a few of the characters to the right actually have the rebus as their radical, but even these differ in sound from their rebuses. 也 "ye" - also: 他 "ta" - he, him 池 "chi" - pool, pond 地 "di" - soil, ground 欠 "qian" - owe, lack: 吹 "chui" - blow 歡 "huan" - joy 欣 "xin" - happy 隹 "zhui" - bird: 誰 "shui" - who 難 "nan" - difficult 惟 "wei" - but; only 進 "jin" - advance 雞 "ji" - chicken 崔 "cui" - high 灘 "tan" - sandbar, bank 隻 "zhi" - single
do you have a headache now?
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Post by reinafu on Jun 26, 2015 20:25:08 GMT
I recognize zhongguo in the title of the map ; I guess that the two other words mean "map"...
Between Tibet and Chongqing, as there is the character "si", I guess that maybe it's the province of Sichuan...And the one in the same color as the one I just mentioned has the character "bei" in it, so, maybe it's Huabei...
The green one near Beijing is Shanxi : the mountain of the west
For Tibet, the first character is West, the third one is white and the fourth one has the root of water in it, if I'm not mistaken, so, it might be a story of white water flowing to the west ?
The green one near Shanghai has the word "quiet " in it.
Just on the left of this one, there is " lake of the north " and on the right of Chongqing, there is another province with " lake " in it.
In the province of Beijing, there is also a character with water as root, and it's combined with " ke " (the same as in " wo bu ke yi", which, if I'm not mistaken, means " I can't ")Ah...I just found that hte whole character is the word for river, so, it might be the river of the north...
If I'm not mistaken, in the xinjiang, the 7th charcter from the left has the root of the water and it's combined with Tai as in Taiwan and Taipei, and the 6th character is "white" ; the 4th one seems to be a combination of the character for " wu" (five) on the top and "kou" (mouth)on the bottom.
Tianjing has the word for "sky" in it. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems to me that Tianjing might have been a capital in the past, so, it might be " the sky of the Jing dynasty " ?
Well, it's difficult, and I stop there before telling too many nonsenses...I'm not very gifted in geography and I didn't looked at a map of China, just in order to plays the Sherlock Holmes with yours...
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Post by reinafu on Jun 26, 2015 20:29:24 GMT
It's funny to see that the charater "qian" means "owe" and it's contrary "lack" !
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 21:11:08 GMT
reinafu you're doing great! thanks for not cheating by looking at a map of china with the english transliterations. you guessed sichuan correctly! as well as the character for "west" in tibet, the meanings of shanxi (north of the mountain) and hebei (north of the river), the first word of anhui ("quiet" first word) and tianjin ("sky" first word). let me add a list of the provinces' and major cities' names below the map--maybe that'll be easier to read than looking on the map. as to your comment about "qian"--i'm not quite sure what you mean!
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 21:44:23 GMT
reinafu just so you know, 自治區 means "autonomous region". the first word is similar to "white" 白 but it isn't the same word--there's an extra line in the middle. the second word is indeed similar to the first word of taiwan, although the meaning is different as is the pronunciation; 治 "zhi" means govern. the term literally means "self-governing region". for tianjin 天津, its full meaning is sky ferry. i've added the lists, so if you'd like to make another attempt at identifying more places...
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 22:44:43 GMT
this post isn't meant to start a debate between cantonese vs mandarin, but just to point out how different the two can be (and why canto speakers have such difficulty speaking mandarin). i'll use some of the words already covered and a small handful of ones that sound so different between the two dialects that you have to wonder just how they can be the same word! (NOTE: i'm using my own pronunciation vs the "standard" one used in hong kong.)
人 "ren" (person): "yun"
刀 "dao" (blade): "doe" (as in the animal)
土 "tu" (soil): "toe"
山 "shan" (mountain): "saan"
心 "xin" (heart): "sum"
日 "re" (sun, day): "yut"
月 "yue" (moon, month): "yute" (this sound is almost impossible to properly render in english, so this is the closest. it's a long "u" sound, like "tune".)
木 "mu" (wood): "mook" (the short "oo" sound like "book", as opposed to the long as in "shoot". it's usually written "muk", but most tend to pronounce this as "muck". can't win.)
水 "shui" (water): "sui" (another almost impossible one to properly render.)
火 "huo" (fire): "faw" (as in "raw")
言 "yan" (word): "yeen"
金 "jin" (gold, metal): "gum"
門 "men" (door, entrance): "moon" (as in the celestial object)
雨 "yu" (rain): "yu" (closest one between the two yet!)
numbers (canto in brackets):
一"yi"(yut) 二"er"(yee) 三"san"(saam) 四"si"(say) 五"wu"(mm) 六"liu"(look) 七"qi"(chut) 八"ba"(baat) 九"jiu"(gaow) 十"shi"(sup) 百"bai"(baak) 千"qian"(cheen) 萬"wan"(maan)
seasons (canto in brackets): 春 "chun"(chun) 夏 "xia"(haa) 秋 "qiu"(chaow) 冬 "dong"(doong)
上 "shang" (up): "serng", 下 "xia" (down): "haa", 中 "zhong" (middle): "joong"
左 "zhuo" (left): "zaw", 右 "you" (right): "yaow"
大 "da" (big): "dye", 小 "xiao" (small): "siu"
天 "tian" (sky): "teen", 地 "di" (earth, ground): "day"
colours (canto in brackets): 紅"hong"(hoong) 黃"huang"(wong) 綠"lu" (look) 青 "qing"(tseng) 藍"lan"(laam) 紫"zi"(zi) 黑"hei"(huck) 白"bai"(baak)
不 "bu" (not, no): but
我"wo"(I, me): "ngaw", 你 "ni"(you): "nay", 他 "ta"(he, him): "ta" (same, even same pitch)
好 "hao" (good): "hoe"
姓 "sheng" (surname): "sing", 名 "ming" (first name): "ming" (different pitch)
說 "shuo" (explain, say, refer to): "shute"
河 "he" (river): "haw", 江 "jiang" (large river): "gong", 湖 "hu" (lake): "woo", 海 "hai" (ocean): "hoi", 清 "qing" (clean, clear, pure): "tsing"
是 "shi" (to be (is)): "see"
要 "yao" (want, will, shall; need; important, essential): "yeew"
會 "hui" (can, able; meet, meeting; society, union, party): "wui"
開 "kai" (open): "hoi"
行 "xing" (go; walk): "hung"
做 "zuo" (to do): "zoe"
有 "you" (have): "yaow"
國 "guo" (country, state, nation): "gok" (some say "gwok")
家 "jia" (home, house, family): "gaa"
聲 "sheng" (sound, voice, tone): "sing"
and here are the trickier ones:
樂 ("yue" music, "luo" happy, ? surname): music = "ngok", happy = "lok", surname = "ngaow" (there's a funny story i can tell about these three pronunciations.)
兒 "er" (son, child): "yee"
還 "hai" (also): "waan"
the other complication is that the homophones don't always correspond between the two dialects, so there's often confusion switching between the two:
樓, 流, 留, and 劉 are homophones in canto, but they aren't in mandarin ("lou", "liu2", "liu2", "liu2", respectively).
意, 儀, 易, 亦, and 藝 are homophones in mandarin, but they aren't in canto ("yi3", "yi4", "yi6", "yik6", "ngai6", respectively; please take pitches with grain of salt--dictionary not entirely accurate for some i've come across, but anyway, the point is that they're different).
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 26, 2015 22:52:16 GMT
I recognize zhongguo in the title of the map ; I guess that the two other words mean "map"... sorry, forgot to mention: the other two words refer to political regions and not map. map is 地圖 "ground drawing".
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Post by reinafu on Jun 27, 2015 6:57:38 GMT
Very interesting !
Looking at some vcd karaoke, I had recognized some Cantonese words thanks to the Chinese characters, and for me, it's a very difficult language. When I think that you said that there are 9 tones in Cantonese !! Not a surprise that I don't understand anything !!!
And I prefer the musicality of Mandaring language...
I think that the bigger difference between the two languages I ever met until know is that for saying " who is it ", the Mandarin says " shi shei " while the Cantonese says " pinggo" (sorry for the orthograph), if I'm not mistaken...
Regarding the character qian I talked about above, well...Doesn't " owe " mean "to have something " and, on the contrary, "lack" means "to miss something " ? That's why I found this funny for the same character to have so different meanings.
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 27, 2015 7:05:45 GMT
Very interesting ! Looking at some vcd karaoke, I had recognized some Cantonese words thanks to the Chinese characters, and for me, it's a very difficult language. When I think that you said that there are 9 tones in Cantonese !! Not a surprise that I don't understand anything !!! And I prefer the musicality of Mandarin language... I think that the bigger difference between the two languages I ever met until know is that for saying " who is it ", the Mandarin says " shi shei " while the Cantonese says " pinggo" (sorry for the orthograph), if I'm not mistaken... Regarding the character qian I talked about above, well...Doesn't " owe " mean "to have something " and, on the contrary, "lack" means "to miss something " ? That's why I found this funny for the same character to have so different meanings. mandarin is definitely the more musical and softer of the two dialect. can't argue that! hahaha, "been goh, ah?" vs "shi shei" mandarin is spoken like it's written; canto is not. ummmm... "owe" means "in need of repaying someone back for something". i, er, think you've confused it with "own", which does mean "to be in possession of something". mmmm... i can see why you were confused!
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Post by reinafu on Jun 27, 2015 12:45:34 GMT
Oh, yes, you're right, I mistook the two words !! thnaks fro pointing it out !
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 27, 2015 18:25:04 GMT
here are some youtube vids on chinese writing: chinese grammar NOTE: something they didn't make explicit is the fact that in chinese, there is only one verb form--no conjugations. to indicate things like past or future or conditional, specific terms are used. four mandarin tones W5 in mandarin mandarin vs cantonese (quite funny--though take the canto accent with a grain of salt )
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 27, 2015 20:57:04 GMT
i've just updated my list of common words. and that's it for my "lessons" in chinese. feel free to ask questions! i'm also hoping the other mandarin speakers can also come out of the woodwork and help (and provide corrections for any errors)! me teaching mandarin is as equally preposterous as the "laowai" in the videos above--and he knows way more than me!
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 27, 2015 22:03:40 GMT
ok, now for exercise #2 (hahaha--you didn't think you'd have to do more work, hmmm? wrrrrrrrrong. learning chinese is all about homework. ) here are some common and popular wuxia-related terms. armed with what you now know about the chinese language, see how many you can now categorize by radical! i'm not providing the pinyin because those can be easy clues. 武林 江湖 俠 英雄 武功 點脈 内功 輕功 師傅/師父 遊俠 恩仇 鵰 鷹 鴛鴦 塵 鐵 神 星 錄 傳 記 淚 劍 槍 棒 棍 鉤 剪 掌 拳 暗器 天涯 雙 寶
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