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Post by caiyi on Nov 1, 2017 8:21:41 GMT
Recently there is a theory going around the web that said Yang Guo actually loves Guo Fu the most. Some even postulate that Yang Guo actually ended up with Guo Fu later based on some clues in HSDS. I won't go into details the hints and clue these articles point out for as I need time translating them from Chinese. I'll add later.
I do at least think the theory of 'YG loves GF the most' is possible (the 'Yang Guo married GF later' theory is a bit of the stretch). Jin Yong's initial plan was for YG to end up with GF while Little Dragon Girl ends up dying. But due to letters from readers and the persuasion of a fellow writer friend, he changed the ending to the current happy ending. But, what if in his heart, JY has not completely abandon his initial idea and thus left hints in the text of YG's love for GF?
What do you guys and girls think? Do you agree with this new theory or you think that the one Yang Guo loves the most is indeed LDG? Or you actually have another girl in mind, such as Guo Xiang?
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 1, 2017 14:13:55 GMT
huh. interesting. so, basically, it's a subplot of mutual unrequited love for both YG and GF. i can "see" the possible logic of JY's original idea--it would be the ultimate reconciliation of the familial dynamics that got screwed up by Yang Kang (i.e., the fathers were blood brothers, but the bond between GJ and YK was pretty one-sided, and if their children married, then the rift is healed).
romance in stories, especially wuxia, tends to be tethered to the overall plot. unless there's a point to it, it's rare that random characters would fall in love with each other. this isn't real life, after all. it's stylized epic fantasy. and from that point of view, YG and GF's romance would be conventional. BORING. we definitely would lose the drama of YG throwing himself off the cliff 16 years later. and it would take away from his anti-hero, anti-convention persona if he didn't end up with his teacher--fine, the story could've still kept the bit where they got married in the old tomb, but that could be seen as an act of youthful rebellion and that he "came to his senses" later in life. dull. no, i think his marrying his teacher, pining for her, and then them sailing off into the sunset, leaving status quo behind, is more interesting.
and honestly, if YG loved GF best, he would not have pined for 16 years and then thrown himself off the cliff.
and dare i say it (well, obviously): a love between a man and a woman does NOT have to be romantic and sexual. YG and GF have a sibling-like relationship, and despite her bullying, they likely developed a bond, one that carried over into adulthood and persisted despite YG rejecting the whole intended marriage thing. so, the hints left in the text might simply be about this and not about unrequited love.
thanks for sharing the theory, @caiyi! for me, it's just not as interesting as the canon romance.
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 14, 2017 22:56:40 GMT
i told my parents about this and they're on opposite sides: dad thinks YG loved GF best; mom thinks YG loved XLN best.
and btw, if i ever come across as abrasive or unreasonable, i do apologize--i tend to just write what i'm thinking and reacting to. i don't mean to shut down the discussion and i definitely don't think i'm always right! so if anyone was hesitant to share their opinion about this (or any discussion), please don't! i'd love the discussion to continue!
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Post by caiyi on Nov 15, 2017 15:39:33 GMT
i told my parents about this and they're on opposite sides: dad thinks YG loved GF best; mom thinks YG loved XLN best. and btw, if i ever come across as abrasive or unreasonable, i do apologize--i tend to just write what i'm thinking and reacting to. i don't mean to shut down the discussion and i definitely don't think i'm always right! so if anyone was hesitant to share their opinion about this (or any discussion), please don't! i'd love the discussion to continue! Hi Siuyiu. Sorry if my inactivity made you misunderstood. I was not offended and neither did you come off as abrasive or unreasonable. I have every plan to continue the discussion. It's just that I was busy lately and have no time to translate the chinese articles I read. It's me who should apologize. I'll list down some points I've read Points for YG loving GF - Yang Guo cares very much about what GF think of him. When GF made fun of him or thought less of him, he got very angry. But, LWS called him 'stupid egg' and he's not angry. - GF cut off his arm and unintentionally poisoned his beloved Gugu, but, he ever thought of taking revenge on her. - Near the end of the story, while they were fighting enemies during GX's birthday party, he still want GF to apologize/admit wrong to him before he saved her husband. He still cannot let go of GF thinking badly or less of him after so many years and after he found his true love. - YG's love for Little Dragon Girl grew out of respect and familiarity. He never thought of loving LDG before she confessed her love for him. - He indeed loves Gugu very much and wiling to die for her, but, his deepest love that maybe he himself didn't realise is GF. Points of YG ending up with GF is longer, and more detailed. They mostly get hints of HSDS. But, here's a video in cantonese that talk about this point. I was not that convince when I listen to the video (that's why I said stretching it in my original post), but the more chinese articles I read the more convince I am. - GX never found YG and XLN eventhough both has express desire to meet her again sometime in the future at the end of LOCH. Why they avoided her instead. Reason - YG married her big sister. - In real history Yelu Qi's father has become Mongol's respected minister who supposedly contribute alot for Yuan Dynasty. How could that be? Reason - Yelu Qi betrayed the Guos and Song Kingdom, thus, GF and YLQ seperated. - LDG actually wasn't cured of the poison. The honey and white fish she ate all those kept the poison at bay. After reuniting with YG, and didn't take the honey and fish, her poison came back and she died. - Why Yellow Dress Girl has authority over Beggars Clan? Both YG and XLN and Ancient Tomb has nothing to do with Beggars Clan. Why Yellow Dress Girl know the full 9 Yin? Reason - GF inherit Beggars Clan leadership from Huang Rong and GF married YG. So, their descendant has authority over Beggars Clan. - Why GX suddenly decide to become a Taoist nun and form Er-Mei at 40? Reason - she got to know that YG end up with GF and she was upset.
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 15, 2017 23:54:19 GMT
no apology required, @caiyi--RL is always getting in the way of fun! those are interesting points, but not enough to convince me to change my opinion. i wanted to respond to one specific point brought up in the video: that the yellow-robed maiden in HDSD, presumably descended from YG, learned the 9 Yin technique in full because GJ/HR taught son-in-law YG. i want to point out that GJ learned 9 Yin from ZBT, and given that YG had a friendship with ZBT that's separate from the relationships with GJ/HR means that it's also very possible that YG learned 9 Yin from ZBT directly. and in some ways, given ZBT's long contemplations and investigations in 9 Yin, learning from him would be a more comprehensive lesson than through GJ/HR, so an even more pure form of technique could've been passed down to the yellow-robed maiden in that way. there will always be justifications to be used for both arguments, and given that none of us are JY, we can never be sure what exactly he intended. (alas, he has dementia now, so we will never know.) but it's interesting to learn that there's another interpretation of the text that i'd never considered! i WILL say: if GF did divorce YLQ, she's way more progressive-minded than i'd ever have given her credit for--i've always felt that she embodied the worst traits from both parents while sister GX embodied the best. even if she never chopped off YG's arm, i'd still find her annoying. i'm just thinking out loud again and throwing out another suggestion: it's possible that YG/XLN produced a son who married the daughter of Guo Polu, and the yellow-robed maiden is their descendant. people tend to forget that GJ/HR had a son. if this union of the families did occur, then it'd also explain why the yellow-robed maiden knows 9 Yin and has sway over the beggar clan. see: you can justify anything!
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Post by caiyi on Nov 16, 2017 1:14:32 GMT
i WILL say: if GF did divorce YLQ, she's way more progressive-minded than i'd ever have given her credit for--i've always felt that she embodied the worst traits from both parents while sister GX embodied the best. even if she never chopped off YG's arm, i'd still find her annoying. Maybe Yelu Qi left her. How can he still stay with the Guo family after betraying them? But, GF divorcing YLQ is not impossible. I've read one interesting observation of GF that shows that she's quite patriotic. 郭芙16岁上战场,30多岁还在战场上 (Guo Fu went to the battlefield at 16, and she still goes to the battlefield at 30+) If she's a patriotic person like her father, she might divorce YLQ for what he did. i'm just thinking out loud again and throwing out another suggestion: it's possible that YG/XLN produced a son who married the daughter of Guo Polu, and the yellow-robed maiden is their descendant. people tend to forget that GJ/HR had a son. if this union of the families did occur, then it'd also explain why the yellow-robed maiden knows 9 Yin and has sway over the beggar clan. That's a good point too.
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 16, 2017 1:25:46 GMT
do we actually have proof that YLQ betrayed the guos? i always assumed that, in order to marry GF, he essentially broke ties with his family, kinda like how GJ turned his back on genghis khan and thus was seen as a traitor by them. and given that history, there's no way YLQ's family would've allowed him to marry GF.
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Post by caiyi on Nov 16, 2017 1:31:37 GMT
This discussion really made me want to read ROCH for myself. But, this will not be possible in the near future. The book is too long and there is RL matters to deal with. Plus, I'm reading other unfinished books that has been on my bookshelf for ages such as 'Hu Huan Ling' and PZXYL.
On the matter of GF. I never hated or disliked her like most people do. My first clear impression of her came from the ROCH 95 adaptation. In that adaptation she was pretty OK, not as vilified as other adaptations. ROCH 95 also has gentler HR who was actually quite nice to YG despite not teaching him martial art.
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 16, 2017 2:12:59 GMT
reading wuxia requires time and commitment, which is a reason i haven't managed to finish a new novel in recent years. one of these days, when RL is less crazy, you should try and read ROCH. it's worth reading once.
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Post by caiyi on Nov 16, 2017 4:04:55 GMT
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 16, 2017 4:42:41 GMT
thanks for the articles--i'll read them when my brain is functioning. apparently, dad came to that conclusion on his own, so he was quite excited to argue and try to get me to come around to his line of thinking. i proved tough to crack.
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Post by caiyi on Nov 16, 2017 5:26:18 GMT
Excerpt from www.gooread.com/article/20120744387/金庸小說楊過最愛的人其實不是小龍女!三個細節可以證明 在連載版中的小龍女,金庸設定的結局是無藥可救。然而,讀者們卻聯名報社,如果小龍女死了,報紙不買了!金庸先生迫於壓力,幫小龍女設計了兩種解藥:蜂蜜和白魚。然而,金庸有屈服嗎?其實並沒有,書中也有暗示,我們後期再表。那麼按金庸的願意,小龍女如果死去了,楊過會和誰在一起?或者楊過最後到底和誰在一起?金庸草蛇灰線,伏筆千裡啊,你若不仔細體會,可能真的會被忽悠。比如今天的這個標題,閣下是不是是要進來吐槽一番?不著急。且容小編辯解一番!到底是哪三個細節。 我們先說下楊過的命運。楊過可算是一個孤兒,由於家境的原因,楊過從小就是一個自尊和自卑共存的人。這種人通常不善於表達自己的真實心意,尤其是男女私情,因為自卑讓他沒有自信。這點,在喜歡的女孩子面前更是如此!捫心自問,你是不是也如此?在女神面前,屌絲們總是要刻意展示自己獨特魅力的一面,以博得女神的芳心!楊過也是如此!今天小編要說的這三個細節基本都是由此心理引起: 細節一:“採花和鬥蛐蛐”,楊過小時候第一次遇見郭芙的時候,就采了花要送給她戴,後來又因為好強和郭芙鬥蛐蛐,然而這兩件事,都不歡而散。 細節二:也是“採花和鬥蛐蛐”,只不過這次女主是小龍女。楊過對小龍女說“我採花給你戴,我捉蛐蛐給你玩。”這兩個細節是巧合嗎?那金庸也太無聊了吧?為什麼數年過去,楊過要讓那段受打擊的往事重演?說明,楊過忘不了啊!小龍女或許只是一個替代品。 細節三:“因為郭芙的一個眼神,楊過居然暗暗傷心”。我們來看一段原文:“楊過與郭芙多年不見……哪知此時已長成一個顏若春花的美貌少女……眼光掃到楊過臉上時……神色間頗有鄙夷之意……”這是多年之後,楊過重遇郭芙的文字描述,當時楊過戴著面具。郭芙如此不經意的一個眼神,本沒有針對楊過,然而楊過的反映如何?我們繼續看:心道:你瞧我不起,難道我就非要你瞧得起不可?……我生來命苦,受人侮辱。你再來侮辱,我也不在乎。他站在一旁“暗暗傷心“。大家不覺得楊過暗戀的人其實是郭芙嗎?小編都編不下去了,這不非常明顯嗎?小龍女對他冷冰冰!陸無雙甚至對他動過殺心,憑什麼楊過不認為其他人是在侮辱他?而偏偏郭芙一個並不是針對他的眼神,楊過卻敏感到如此程度?只能說明,郭芙在楊過的心理確實太重要了。哎!
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 16, 2017 5:58:51 GMT
to that last point, i would submit the argument that he was just pulling a henry crawford (from jane austen's mansfield park). here are the pertinent excerpts:
Henry Crawford, ruined by early independence and bad domestic example, indulged in the freaks of a cold-blooded vanity a little too long... Could he have been satisfied with the conquest of one amiable woman’s affections... there would have been every probability of success and felicity for him... He saw Mrs. Rushworth, was received by her with a coldness which ought to have been repulsive, and have established apparent indifference between them for ever; but he was mortified, he could not bear to be thrown off by the woman whose smiles had been so wholly at his command: he must exert himself to subdue so proud a display of resentment; it was anger on Fanny’s account; he must get the better of it...
to put it simply: YG never got over the mortification of being snubbed by GF. theirs is a love-hate relationship. so, even when it stopped mattering (both of them married to others, and him finding a pure type of love from XLN), there was still a residual of the old feelings that would crop up whenever they interacted.
if you think about it, if he truly loved GF best, he would've jumped to agree to save YLQ when GF asked; instead, he snarkily told her he'd only do so if she begged him--and then he realized what a shit he was being when she DID swallow her pride and went down on her knees.
i don't disagree with the assertion that GF loved YG best and that she settled for YLQ. but i don't think the feeling was mutual. YG's feelings for her aren't pure hate, of course, for theirs is a complicated past--growing up together, a brief reconnection after he left the ancient tomb, when both were going through their teens and hormones were rampant, and then the whole misunderstanding with the arm situation.
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Post by caiyi on Nov 16, 2017 8:03:09 GMT
On the 3rd point. You point is a solid one. It could very well be unresolved hurt feelings on Yang Guo's part. But, it's interesting that Jin Yong choose to use the phrase “暗暗傷心“ (quietly sad) to describe YG's feeling at that point. If the residue feeling is mortification of being snub, his reaction should be anger. Instead he went to 'pity me' mode (我生來命苦,受人侮辱) and then went “暗暗傷心“.
I think the 2nd point is also quite a strong point. Why did YG want to redo the activities he did with GF with XLN? Are picking flowers and fighting cricket really such activities to him and he can only think of these 2 when he want to do something fun with XLN?
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 17, 2017 2:16:25 GMT
in what setting did the "repeat" of activities occur? if it was during the time in the ancient tomb, it could simply be YG still retaining bits of boyhood. and wanting to relive/share a happy moment with XLN.
as for why he was in self-pity mode, well, he's not such a "big man" that he doesn't feel hurt. in fact, isn't the fact that he's so passionate/emotional the reason why people love/hate his characterization? (i.e., the women love him, the men hate him.) much of what YG does is a reaction to how people react to him--or how he thinks they react to him. he constantly needs to prove others wrong, to rebel, to do things his way just to stick it to the status quo. this is baggage from childhood, having been looked down upon. i'm sure, even before his mom died, he was mocked and bullied because he didn't have a father. and then HR treated him differently from the other kids, and those kids ganged up on him. then there was the abuse from the taoists. is it any wonder that he'd prefer the simplicity of his relationship with XLN?
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