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Post by kyc on Jan 12, 2019 2:48:39 GMT
reinafu, I do not really know Shaw Brothers productions that well so I may be wrong. But a lot of their wuxia productions, like their Jin Yongs, aren't held in high regard and can be quite generic--practically no one mentions their Jin Yong films nowadays compared to the TVB productions. The Ti Lung adaptation may fall into that category. The only Gu Long film I have heard good things about is Killer Clans... siuyiu, about "GL's women are generally written as bitchy, conniving, slutty" I've just finished Sword of the Third Young Master (《三少爺的劍》) and it's true the women there are less flattering. There are many prostitutes or women prostituting themselves in this book, so in one sense you may be right. At the end there is a woman who sleeps with any man but she does it for money and is already jaded; Gu Long and the protagonist do not feel that they can criticize her. Coming from a broken family, living relationships with taxi dancers who weren't paragons of fidelity and having illegitimate children all colored his views of life and women. In many sense Gu Long is definitely more cynical and less idealistic about them than, say, Jin Yong. Maybe conniving and slutty is right, but 2D probably in the same sense as Jin Yong's pretty women who will love a cad forever and even die for him? Both writers when on auto-pilot produce a kind of woman character which they reproduce over and over in their books... Gu Long probably had a harder life than Jin Yong and he also cares less about his health... that's why Jin Yong lived until 94 despite being a diabetic and Gu Long drinks himself to death at 47 even though he has a liver problem. A lot of his cynicism stem from the fact he did not know who to trust (women or otherwise) and he frequently reinvents the Triads convention in a period background; the men sleep around very often and in one sense he is a rather machismo writer. Yes, yes, I've overread. I will probably stay away from Gu Long from a couple of weeks... maybe from other wuxia also.
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 12, 2019 3:08:17 GMT
both JY and GL were somewhat bound by certain conventions, both of genre and of culture. many people with modern sensibilities cringe at the thread of what we would consider misogyny that is rampant in certain written works of certain eras but which were just "the norm" of attitudes that existed, that even the women themselves subscribed to and perpetrated. yes, what i meant was that GL's life experiences coloured his writing very significantly. and i'm not trying to write off his female characters, but it's often not just what they do but how he views women in general that rather colours his text and his plots. why be embarrassed about looking at a work critically? i say have at it! it's better that you're passionate about it than reading for the sake of saying "you were here". please share more opinions!
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Post by kyc on Jan 12, 2019 5:08:00 GMT
both JY and GL were somewhat bound by certain conventions, both of genre and of culture. many people with modern sensibilities cringe at the thread of what we would consider misogyny that is rampant in certain written works of certain eras but which were just "the norm" of attitudes that existed, that even the women themselves subscribed to and perpetrated. yes, what i meant was that GL's life experiences coloured his writing very significantly. and i'm not trying to write off his female characters, but it's often not just what they do but how he views women in general that rather colours his text and his plots. why be embarrassed about looking at a work critically? i say have at it! it's better that you're passionate about it than reading for the sake of saying "you were here". please share more opinions! I wonder why Gu Long and Jin Yong are called "misogynists"... maybe a fairer term would be "sexists" or "male chauvinists". However, Jin Yong may even be called a "philogynist". I've yet to be convinced by Gu Long as a misogynist. Yes, a lot of the villains in his books are women, they can be sluttish or wicked. But creating wicked female characters doesn't automatically make you a misogynist. Gu Long is more likely to create an unlikeable woman character and try to make you sympathize with her. His favorite sort of comment on them is like, "look, they are jaded, they need to live on men, but can you really blame them?" The exact opposite of a misogynist I would say. He writes about promiscuous women, sluts and prostitutes, but that doesn't make him a misogynist. Jin Yong is too adoring of the female sex to be called a misogynist. Maybe he's more of a sexist: he thinks a good woman should stay at home, throws her arms around her husband when he returns, bears children for him and not take up a job beyond supporting her husband. You can talk about the culture of certain eras, it's true, but neither Wang Dulu (writing a decade before Jin Yong), nor Liang Yusheng nor Cao Xueqin (200 years before them) subscribe to the same opinion... so maybe it's true that Chinese men during the mid 20th century tends to be more chauvinistic; still, but not all men during that time are like that. If you are, you tend to differentiate the roles between the sexes more clearly. There are many women who are top fighters in Liang Yusheng... in Jin Yong, I think only Lin Chaoying, and she might not be the best fighter of her era (there's Wang Chongyang). Basically, all women in Jin Yong have their weak spot in a man they love. You don't need to defeat them; just capture their men and they will succumb...
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 12, 2019 5:18:15 GMT
i would use the term "sexist" as well. and "chauvinistic". but i'm merely pointing out that there are some who jump directly to misogyny, that's all.
and i'm also not trying to accuse all wuxia writers of conforming to the mold, it's just that there are conventions of the genre that most don't bother to break out of. can't deny there are certain typical tropes.
perhaps its my bias, but i've always sensed that GL didn't have a positive view of women--not hatred, but not respect, either.
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Post by kyc on Jan 12, 2019 6:17:22 GMT
i would use the term "sexist" as well. and "chauvinistic". but i'm merely pointing out that there are some who jump directly to misogyny, that's all. and i'm also not trying to accuse all wuxia writers of conforming to the mold, it's just that there are conventions of the genre that most don't bother to break out of. can't deny there are certain typical tropes. perhaps its my bias, but i've always sensed that GL didn't have a positive view of women--not hatred, but not respect, either. I know. I say this not as a reaction to you, but because yesterday when I was browsing through another forum the terms "misogyny" and "preachy" cropped up frequently as criticisms of Gu Long. I will say more (defend or agree) when I have read more Gu Long. I'd say two Gu Longs in a week is too much, even for critical thinking. Probably one GL in a fortnight is a better reading pace. I plan to finish half to 2/3 of Gu Long, Liang Yusheng and Wang Dulu by the end of this year. Why the hurry? Because I don't know if I can spare the same amount of time two years later.
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 12, 2019 18:06:05 GMT
i would use the term "sexist" as well. and "chauvinistic". but i'm merely pointing out that there are some who jump directly to misogyny, that's all. I know. I say this not as a reaction to you, but because yesterday when I was browsing through another forum the terms "misogyny" and "preachy" cropped up frequently as criticisms of Gu Long. I will say more (defend or agree) when I have read more Gu Long. I'd say two Gu Longs in a week is too much, even for critical thinking. Probably one GL in a fortnight is a better reading pace. I plan to finish half to 2/3 of Gu Long, Liang Yusheng and Wang Dulu by the end of this year. Why the hurry? Because I don't know if I can spare the same amount of time two years later. ah. gotcha. sorry that you got hot under the collar because of the online criticisms of GL. i agree that GL should be taken in doses--can't binge on his stuff! well, i really do hope you'll continue to read and share for as long as possible!
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Post by kyc on Jan 19, 2019 2:04:06 GMT
A review of the Gu Long novel, Sword of the Third Young Master (《三少爺的劍》), which I read a week ago. I hope I'm not being long-winded by stating that there are spoilers in this review. There is no published translation but there's one at Spcnet done by many hands.
Sword of the Third Young Master is one of Gu Long's later pieces and contained in one volume. As such, it is longer (though not by much) than The Eleventh Son which I read two weeks ago. The protagonist of the novel is Xie Xiaofeng (謝曉峰), the most highly skilled practitioner of the sword and a former martial arts prodigy. He defeated a prominent swordsman when he was 13 and made his name, living in the Divine Sword Manor, a lineage of highly skilled swordsmen.
Sword of the Third Young Master is, again, an exceptional novel. Maybe I didn't like it as much as The Eleventh Son, but I will put it alongside Liuxing, Hudie, Jian as one of Gu Long's most representative novels. Xie Xiaofeng is like many Gu Long protagonists--powerful but a loner, feeling guilty because he fathered an illegitimate son, upholding the name of his manor and forefathers but as a result, cannot find a true friend (until maybe at the end).
Let's talk about my reservations about this novel first--which aren't many. This novel on the whole isn't as cohesive as The Eleventh Son. There are many times when the story plot shifts to another phase and sometimes when you look back, they appear not to cohere so well--it's almost like another novel altogether. This is not fatal but noticeable. Also, I never really understood why Xie Xiaofeng has to eject himself from the Divine Sword Manor and become a layman. Either it's because I was reading too fast, or Gu Long simply forgot to explain.
The women are less likeable than in The Eleventh Son--less "rounded" I would say. Yet Gu Long puts in a lot of his views of women in this novel, especially women who trade with their bodies. His views are sympathetic. But some women such as Murong Qiudi and Li Zhenzhen aren't really.
The good things, when they are very good (and they usually are), are excellent indeed. The repartees are razor-sharp and the twists are quite unexpected--as you can expect from a Gu Long novel. As always, you can imagine how good the martial arts are because Gu Long uses poetic (if somewhat vague) ways to represent how well they fight. By this stage of his career, you feel that Gu Long knows he has to better himself and he stretches the imagination to the limit in many ways here.
Parts of this novel hark back to Liuxing, Hudie, Jian, representing the jianghu as a sort of machismo, Triad society, a throwback to The Godfather which influenced Gu Long so much. Around 1/4 of the novel is in this style--until Xie Xiaofeng fights back and finds himself again. I would say this novel is a compendium of styles and preoccupations of middle and late Gu Long--the women, the Triads-like society, the loner protagonist, the man humiliated and often forced not to fight back--making it quite representative of his entire oeuvre.
I won't hesitate to put Sword of the Third Young Master in the hands of a new reader. In short, it's an excellent Gu Long novel. Rating: 4.5/5.
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Edit: There's a 2016 movie adapted from this book directed by Derek Yee which I didn't even know about. But it seems that its reviews aren't good at all.
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 19, 2019 5:34:38 GMT
kyc in the shaw brothers adaptation of this novel, derek yee played xie xiaofeng.
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Post by kyc on Jan 24, 2019 1:18:25 GMT
So Derek Yee took part in two adaptations of this novel? I have seen neither.
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Post by Admin on Jan 24, 2019 4:16:52 GMT
So Derek Yee took part in two adaptations of this novel? I have seen neither. He was the actor who played as XXF in Shaw Brothers adaptation, and become the director for the second adaptation - I think it's from 2016, with Peter Ho as Yan Shisan.
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Post by Admin on Jan 24, 2019 4:18:50 GMT
Edit: There's a 2016 movie adapted from this book directed by Derek Yee which I didn't even know about. But it seems that its reviews aren't good at all. Yep. Not good at all. They made Yan Shisan really weird with that devilish gothic make up While XXF was not impressive at all.
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Post by reinafu on Jan 24, 2019 21:29:43 GMT
I haven't watched the new adaptation because I didn't want to loose my memory of the Shaws' one and, as I often said, I do'nt like very much the special effects in the modern movies. I'll probably never watch the modern one, the Shaws' one was perfect...
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Post by kyc on Jan 27, 2019 13:26:13 GMT
I haven't watched the new adaptation because I didn't want to loose my memory of the Shaws' one and, as I often said, I do'nt like very much the special effects in the modern movies. I'll probably never watch the modern one, the Shaws' one was perfect...
We are no longer in the era of classic wuxia films. I'd be very surprised if they come up with something different like Crouching Tiger again.
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Post by kyc on Mar 4, 2019 9:36:55 GMT
Just finished Bixie Xi Yinqiang (《碧血洗銀槍》) ("Crimson Blood Rinses Silver Spear"), another one-volume Gu Long novel.
How did masters like Gu Long, Liang Yusheng and Jin Yong write so many novels and still surprise us? BXXYQ just keeps surprising you again and again. It is on the level of Sword of the Third Master.
On the whole an even more coherent novel than the former. It's obvious that Gu Long planned the plot carefully before putting it to paper; the ending explains the beginning and middle parts well. In essence, the whole plot is someone trying to uncover a conspiracy after being framed.
It's one of Gu Long's novels with a happy ending. Not famous but still very good.
A few recurrent themes of Gu Long: the hypocrisy of orthodox sects, lauding friendship (the willingness to die for your friends) etc.
Also, one of the few novels with an ugly love interest... until the end when you discover you were duped.
Conclusion: 4.5/5 (about as good a novel you can expect from Gu Long)
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Post by kyc on Apr 14, 2019 9:17:59 GMT
An update on another two short novels I read of Gu Long, Big Shot (or Big Celebrity, 《大人物》) and Never Submit (《絕不低頭》). They are contained in the same volume in my Simplified Chinese edition.
First, Big Shot. This novel is similar to many other novels that Gu Long later wrote. First published in 1971, its protagonist is a pampered girl, a rich man's daughter, whose dream is to see some big shots of the martial arts world. So this novel at least is different in having a female as a protagonist.
The characters, the situations are similar to those in Gu Long's late novels, but not as nail-bitingly tense. It almost seems like a dress rehearsal for books like Crimson Blood Rinses Silver Spear. There is also a great conspiracy in Big Shot, but overall, I find it not as well planned and some of the revealed "mysteries" a little forced. In other words, certain parts can be seen as plot-holes. If you write a conspiracy, you must let your reader go "Ah...!" and nod in agreement as the puzzles fit together. I find some of the jigsaws surprising but not very convincing, certainly not as convincing as in Crimson Blood Rinses Silver Spear. It was written almost a decade earlier, so maybe Gu Long hadn't got all his acts together.
Characters are quite similar to what we get later in Gu Long... loners, eccentrics, guys who speak humorous aphorisms. It's a happy ending.
Rating: 3.5/5 (Enjoyable, but Gu Long went on to write better novels with tenser plots. Some of the revealed puzzles don't fit well, at least in my opinion.)
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Next, Never Submit (《絕不低頭》).
Unfortunately, this is NOT a wuxia novel. It's set in the 1930s (?), so it is effectively more of a Republican-era Shanghai Triad/Mafia novel. Rewrite of The Godfather?
I have to admit I did not enjoy Never Submit as much because it is a book replete with "machismo" ideas about the Triads. It is not a bad novel but it repeats, almost ad nauseum, what Gu Long has said in so many other novels. One thing I don't get is why these "macho" Triad fighters/schemers still continue to scheme and kill one another, despite showing great distaste for the lifestyle. Gu Long doesn't write enough to suggest their helplessness; it is almost as if Gu Long has a perverse interest in this kind of "machismo" chauvinistic brotherhood. Also, the depiction of women in this novel is borderline insulting. The female protagonist, Bobo (波波), is raped by the male protagonist Black Leopard (黑豹), yet in the end she still manages to fall in love in his virility. Because this guy is really tough, muscular, good in bed etc. etc.
It is still readable and quite enjoyable. But sometimes I wonder whether Gu Long is on auto-pilot and whether his love/hate relationship with women handicapped this novel. It seems he cannot depict a woman who doesn't enjoy degrading herself sexually in this book.
Rating: 3/5 (An OK novel if you like to read about Triads/Mafia à la The Godfather. Women might feel insulted by this novel, which presents a glorified vision of the Triads as populated by virile men who don't flinch on being stabbed. Some guys might even find this novel thrilling. It's a bit like reading a questionable comic, full of depictions of rippling muscular torsos.
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