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Post by kyc on Dec 25, 2021 9:29:17 GMT
I probably won't have time to post much in the next one month, but I like to throw open this question: How do you rank the Jin Yong novels you have read so far? Do give the reasons, it will make this thread so much more interesting. There must be many such threads on other wuxia forums, but not on on this one (yet). So it makes for interesting reading and discussion. Personally I have read all but The Deer and the Cauldron. I will give my ranking on this thread (need a few long posts to justify) but maybe not so soon as I'm a bit busy right now. (I reserve the No. 1 spot for The Deer and the Cauldron based on the few chapters I've read so far, but that may change... ) Ni Kuang's ranking: 1) The Deer and the Cauldron (鹿鼎記) 2) Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils (天龍八部) 3) The Smiling, Proud Wanderer (笑傲江湖) 4) The Return of the Condor Heroes AKA Divine Condor, Chivalric Couple (神鵰俠侶) 5) The Flying Fox of Snowy Mountain (雪山飛狐) 6) The Heaven Sword and the Dragon Sabre (倚天屠龍記) 7) The Legend of the Condor Heroes (射鵰英雄傳) 8) The Book and the Sword: Gratitude and Revenge (書劍恩仇錄) 9) A Deadly Secret (連城訣) 10) Ode to Gallantry (俠客行) 11) The Young Flying Fox (飛狐外傳) 12) The Sword Stained with Royal Blood (碧血劍) 13) Lovers' Sabre (鴛鴦刀) 14) The White Horse Neighs in the West Wind (白馬嘯西風) Anyone, anyone? Just get the ball rolling. Discussions are encouraged as long as conducted in a civil manner, even if the opinions are polarizing or different. P. S. There is a similar post here on spcnet: www.spcnet.tv/forums/showthread.php/36391-Ni-Kuang-s-ranking-of-Jin-Yong-s-novels?s=d0d9d39bf285474a5869198a8af8d74f#.Ycbj8WjP02wbut please don't neglect this thread.
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Post by atumiwa on Dec 27, 2021 17:10:40 GMT
1. Smiling Proud Wanderer 2. Heavenly Sword and Dragon Saber 3. Ode To Gallantry 4. Demi Gods and Semi Devils 5. Sword Stained With royal blood 6. A Deadly secret 7. the deer and the cauldron 8. the Young Flying Fox 9. Legend of the condor heroes 10. return of the condor heroes 11. Flying fox of the snowy mountain 12. the book and the sword 13. white horse neighs in the western wind 14. mandarin duck blades 15. yue maiden
btw 鴛鴦刀 is so similar to 鸳鸯钺 , a weapon used in wushu , but i think the one in blade dance of two lovers are not those right?
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Post by kyc on Dec 27, 2021 17:35:37 GMT
I don't know wushu, I don't think they're the same weapon. They don't look the same. Anyway, the sabres are used by two people in the Jin Yong story.
You should get a medal for being the first to respond!
I'm surprised LOCH and ROCH ranked so low for you.
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Post by siuyiu on Dec 29, 2021 1:56:30 GMT
of the ones i've read (which doesn't even add up to half!), here's my ranking:
1) Demi-Gods and Semi-Devils (天龍八部) 2) The Return of the Condor Heroes AKA Divine Condor, Chivalric Couple (神鵰俠侶) 3) Ode to Gallantry (俠客行) 4) The Legend of the Condor Heroes (射鵰英雄傳)
i've skimmed bits of HSDS & BXJ, so can't count those.
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Post by kyc on Dec 29, 2021 12:53:11 GMT
It's all for fun really. I hope to have time to write something on New Year's Eve. Maybe half on that day and the next half on New Year's Day. LOCH's ranking
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Post by siuyiu on Dec 31, 2021 3:08:08 GMT
kyc i just don't like the GJ personality type. LOCH is by no means a bad story, just overall my least fave. even though i haven't read them in full, i know the plot of both BXJ and HSDS, and they would def rank below LOCH.
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Post by kyc on Dec 31, 2021 5:46:09 GMT
kyc i just don't like the GJ personality type. LOCH is by no means a bad story, just overall my least fave. even though i haven't read them in full, i know the plot of both BXJ and HSDS, and they would def rank below LOCH. siuyiu, you don't like HSDS's plot or you don't like Zhang Wuji too?
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Post by kyc on Dec 31, 2021 7:47:48 GMT
Today is New Year’s Eve… happy 2022! Hopefully the virus will be kept at bay in most countries.
I’ll rank the first seven today and hopefully the second half tomorrow. The ranking's all done now.
No. 1 is left blank for the moment because: a) I haven’t read The Deer and the Cauldron yet, it may rank higher or lower, I don't know, and b) I hope that someday, someone will write a better wuxia novel than DGSD.
2) Demigods and Semi-devils (《天龍八部》)
Although I don't quite care for Duan Yu and Xu Zhu, taken as a whole, it’s hard not to rank DGSD as Jin Yong’s best pure wuxia novel.
The novel has the largest, most colorful cast of characters in the JY universe, with unforgettable villains and righteous characters. Xiao Feng must be the most respected, certainly the most tragic, hero in all JY. DGSD has the grand thematic coherence of Divine Condor, Chivalric Couple, the unforgettable set-pieces of The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber, and is more ambitious than either, in length and scope. In terms of writing technique, it rivals The Smiling, Proud Wanderer. In terms of plot, there is no wuxia novel more thrilling than DGSM on a first read.
JY has already perfected the “detective/mystery” elements that drive a plot with DGSD. “What are the birth origins of Duan Yu, Qiao Feng and Xu Zhu?”, “Who is the Chief?” etc. You can’t stop reading the book once you started.
What sets this novel apart is JY’s profound compassion for his characters. Whether or not you like them, even the villains are pitiable. That’s impressive in wuxia fiction, where characters are usually divided into black and white rather than shades of gray.
3) The Smiling, Proud Wanderer (《笑傲江湖》)
In terms of pure writing technique, JY never wrote a better novel than The Smiling, Proud Wanderer. It has the audacity to introduce its hero late, yet JY is able to sustain interest through the earlier parts. Dongfang Bubai is the most memorable cameo in all wuxia fiction: the way JY builds up interest in him is an object lesson to all budding wuxia writers.
The Smiling, Proud Wanderer is essentially a political allegory disguised as a wuxia novel. Again you see the “detective/mystery” elements the author is so good at: you keep reading to unravel the mysteries of the Bixie Sword Manual, Dongfang Bubai etc. The plot is certainly one of JY’s best.
You may argue that DGSD has a larger, more memorable cast of characters, which is why I rank this slightly below DGSD. But Linghu Chong is a most likeable hero; it’s a pity we only have him to root for throughout the book. The plot and the set-pieces are on HSDS level, only bested by DGSD. It features so many memorable characters from the JY universe: Feng Qingyang, Yue Buqun, Lin Pingzhi, Ren Woxing, Dongfang Bubai etc.
4) The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber (《倚天屠龍記》)
The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber inaugurates the “romantic”, “detective” phase in JY’s writing. Everything here is on a larger scale than before, and again, JY introduces the hero late in the novel. What sets this novel apart are the set-pieces: they are simply thrilling. Did JY ever write anything more exciting than the Battle at Bright Peak, where Zhang Wuji fights leaders of the orthodox sects, defeats Abbess Miejue, and gets stabbed by Zhou Zhiruo? Or when Zhao Min comes after Zhang Sanfeng with her minions, with Zhang Wuji disguised in the background as a lowly apprentice?
This is the first JY novel largely driven by a “mystery” plot: here, the readers want to know the secret behind the Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber. It makes for compulsive reading the first time.
Zhang Wuji is one of JY's more contentious heroes. By the third book, he is virtually invincible. Girls won’t care for his wishy-washy attitude in love, which is off-putting. Still, he is likeable, if flawed.
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Post by kyc on Dec 31, 2021 7:50:14 GMT
5) Divine Condor, Chivalric Couple (《神鵰俠侶》)
Divine Condor, Chivalric Couple is like The Legend of the Condor Heroes on steroids. Everything is on a larger, more intense scale, certainly more grotesque. The important characters all make a comeback, but you get new characters and a new hero too.
I am embarrassed to have raved so much about it in my first review. Still, Yang Guo is a very well drawn character, although not everyone will warm to his rebellious, slightly heretic nature. I am more ambivalent about Xiaolongnü, whom I don’t find realistic.
This novel is written around an overriding “theme”, as Ni Kuang once said. It examines aspects of love, whether compulsive, obsessive or forbidden. In terms of plot, I think it is an advancement over The Legend of the Condor Heroes.
6) The Legend of the Condor Heroes (《射鵰英雄傳》)
This novel first opened the eyes of many to JY’s standing in wuxia literature. Liang Yusheng never wrote as long a novel, at least not in 1959. In terms of plot, it is most impressive for an epic-length novel.
The Legend of the Condor Heroes is what I would call an “archetypal” wuxia novel. The hero: not very bright but kind and honest. The heroine: quick-witted, full of tricks and very pretty. You have a beggar and an emperor, an Eastern Heretic and a Western Toxin. All the tropes of modern wuxia fiction are here: you get the idea.
JY wrote more exciting epic-length wuxia novels than LOCH, but this one will always be special as it is the first. Your fondness for it will depend on how much you like Guo Jing and Huang Rong. Do you find Guo Jing too dumb, Huang Rong a little devious?
JY’s later villains are more memorable than Yang Kang and Ouyang Feng. Ouyang Feng becomes a more pitiful character in the sequel. Here, he’s more of a stock villain, but still quite memorable.
7) The Flying Fox of Snowy Mountain (《雪山飛狐》)
This is a short novel, but in terms of structure and storytelling technique, up there with the best. FFSM lets the reader to piece together his or her impressions of the main characters, offering snapshots from different storytellers to build up the grand picture. There are plenty of flashbacks, narration and lies, as characters recount a story from decades ago.
The hero of this novel is Hu Yidao, who is dead by the start of the story. Miao Renfeng is the other main character. The title character, Hu Fei, isn’t so fleshed out here. But even the minor characters are well drawn, the subplots intriguing. The novel ends in a cliffhanger.
Any film director wanting to direct a JY film should consider FFSM. JY was working for a film company when he wrote this, and its overall concept is very cinematic. Its structure is so impressive, I can’t ignore this fact when ranking the novels. It gets more impressive with every subsequent read.
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Post by kyc on Dec 31, 2021 10:12:25 GMT
8) The Young Flying Fox (《飛狐外傳》)
Ranking this so high is probably controversial. I rank this No. 8 mainly because Hu Fei is my favorite JY hero, and I find the love triangle quite realistic. The plot I agree isn’t the best, but the characters make up for it.
This novel is a prequel to FFSM. JY once said he had trouble writing the length required for each serial segment, which was a little longer than what he was used to. So this novel does have an odd “flow”.
Certain characters from The Book and the Sword return for this novel, but Hu Fei is the one that makes it memorable. Hu Fei is to me the ideal JY hero: not lecherous like Wei Xiaobao, not a headless chicken running after women like Duan Yu, not wishy-washy with girls like Zhang Wuji, not all doom and gloom as with Xiao Feng (sigh), with a strong sense of justice. His love triangle with Yuan Ziyi and Cheng Lingsu is intriguing. In Cheng Lingsu, JY finally writes a woman character that isn’t pretty. A lot of people hate Yuan Ziyi; I find her pitiful. On the whole, this novel has emotional resonance for me. That counts for a lot.
9) The Book and the Sword: Gratitude and Revenge (《書劍恩仇錄》)
JY’s first wuxia novel and the first that I read, so I have a soft spot for it. Looking back, its model is probably Liang Yusheng, with its multiple heroes. True, Chen Jialuo is the main one, but the rest of the Red Flower Society cast holds up well. I especially like Xin Yan and Li Yuanzhi. Here at least, JY’s women doesn’t descend into categories (see Section 7.6: Women Who Fall in Love with the Wrong Guy and Die for Him: a) Ma Chunhua, b) Ji Xiaofu, c) Yue Lingshan etc. etc.) Huo Qingtong is actually smarter than Huang Rong if not so quick-witted, and suffers for it.
This debut novel makes you wonder... what if JY cultivates the “multiple heroes” model of LYS? I don’t think the model works for every LYS novel, but JY’s heroes are lonely. Zhang Wuji and Linghu Chong don’t have friends their age; they only have girls swooning over them, over and over. So predictable. Here at least, the girls have choices too.
Chen Jiaruo may be a scumbag, but he at least is an interesting one, not like boring Yuan Chengzhi and Shi Potian. Princess Fragrance may not be believable, but I think overall, the plot still holds up pretty well.
10) A Deadly Secret (《連城訣》)
A most painful novel to read, not because it’s bad, but because... it’s hard not to feel affected by its emotions. The plot is similar to Dumas’s The Count of Monte Cristo. The setting is changed to Qing Dynasty, China, with incorporated wuxia elements.
The hero is Di Yun, an honest, uncomplicated lad who is tricked, wronged and betrayed by his enemies and master. It shares certain themes with The Smiling, Proud Wanderer; both are about the greed and wickedness of man. Ding Dian makes a memorable cameo early in the novel. Hua Tiegan is the best written of the other characters.
This novel could have been ranked higher. It certainly has emotional impact, but begs two questions: a) Should a novel be sustained on emotions alone?; b) Could a novel about so much suffering survive an indifferent ending?
My answers are: a) it’s hard for a novel to be sustained by emotions alone; b) its artistic merit would definitely suffer. I can’t understand why Jin Yong left the emotionally traumatized Di Yun with an immature girl who treats him like a spare tire.
Not to mention JY 3.0 which left her saying:
『我等了你這麼久!我知道你終於會回來的。你如不來,我要在這裡等你十年,你十年不來,我到江湖上找你一百年!』
Di Yun’s first love has just died and he is left thoroughly disillusioned by humanity and life. Should Shui Sheng (and JY) talk less and let him bring up Qi Fang’s girl alone? Only time can heal his wounds...
The specter of Auntie Chiung Yao lurks behind the 3.0 ending.
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Post by kyc on Dec 31, 2021 10:14:47 GMT
11) Ode to Gallantry (《俠客行》)
An enjoyable wuxia novel written between DSDS and SPW. The reason I rank it so low is because this is “JY lite”. This is JY on auto pilot, written as an aside between his two grandest novels. It certainly is enjoyable, but I won’t call it a great novel.
The novel is also “lite” in lacking emotional resonance. Nobody will call Shi Potian his favorite JY hero. A goodie two-shoes, the boy is as colorless as his romantic counterpart, the equally anonymous Ah Xiu. Ding Dang has more personality, but fades away towards the end. The rest of the characters aren’t that memorable too.
The ending is the best part. JY makes a dig at pedantic “experts”. To master an unrivaled skill inspired by Li Bai’s poetry, you don’t need to be literate, haha.
12) The White Horse Neighs in the West Wind (《白馬嘯西風》)
The only JY novel with a female protagonist (apart from the short story). JY should get the Nobel Prize for this.
Joking aside, Ni Kuang really hates the first version. He’s right: the serialized version makes no sense. But I’m ranking the edited version.
This is actually a novella, shorter than most JY. On the whole, it’s a nice novella. The plot is secondary, the psychology of the characters takes center stage. Maybe JY should stop letting girls go gaga after boys, but here at least, everything hangs together psychologically.
13) The Sword Stained with Royal Blood (《碧血劍》)
I was enthusiastic about this novel when first reviewing it. It certainly is a good political novel. As wuxia fiction however, it is not quite exciting enough. Yuan Chengzhi is possibly the most boring hero in JY. His girlfriend Wen Qingqing, with a predilection for pouts, isn’t memorable too.
JY once said that the hero of the piece is really Yuan Chonghuan. The other hero is possibly the Golden Snake Lord, Xia Xueyi.
For once, JY is justified making changes in v. 3.0. Yuan Chengzhi is so boring, he becomes less so making eyes at Ah Jiu. Other than them, I really only remember He Tieshou.
Its low ranking won’t raise many eyebrows I think.
14) The Sword of the Yue Maiden (《越女劍》)
An academic friend of JY liked this best among all his works.
A short story about a girl who mastered some swordplay technique from a gibbon. The girl falls in love with the handsome official, Fan Li, who is in love with Xi Shi, the most celebrated beauty in Chinese history. The jealous girl attempts to assassinate Xi Shi, but is bowled over by her beauty, unable to stab.
It’s a nice story but nothing special. It’s a short story after all. JY isn’t so great at writing short pieces.
There’s a good translation available online, translated by Graham Earnshaw I think, who also did the Book and the Sword translation.
15) Lovers’ Sabers (《鴛鴦刀》)
I find this the most boring and mediocre of JY’s stories. Its only saving grace is JY attempting some comic characters. I think anyone on this forum could come up with a better plot.
I can’t even remember the main characters’ names. They slip in and out of my memory.
Thankfully, it’s short—shorter than a novel, but longer than The Sword of the Yue Maiden.
I think I’m fairly justified in ranking this last among JY’s works.
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 1, 2022 2:15:22 GMT
kyc i just don't like the GJ personality type. LOCH is by no means a bad story, just overall my least fave. even though i haven't read them in full, i know the plot of both BXJ and HSDS, and they would def rank below LOCH. siuyiu , you don't like HSDS's plot or you don't like Zhang Wuji too? i don't like zhang wuji, zhao min, AND zhou zhiruo. the plot is a bit typical of the genre. and the whole in-fighting between sects doesn't get as nasty as XAJH or wen rui'an's xiao xia.
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Post by kyc on Jan 1, 2022 5:40:07 GMT
siuyiu , you don't like HSDS's plot or you don't like Zhang Wuji too? i don't like zhang wuji, zhao min, AND zhou zhiruo. the plot is a bit typical of the genre. and the whole in-fighting between sects doesn't get as nasty as XAJH or wen rui'an's xiao xia. Understand. The Zhao Min vs Zhou Zhiruo fangirls spat on some forums can be annoying. All for Zhang Wuji. The plot may be typical because we know it so well, lol.
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Post by siuyiu on Jan 1, 2022 20:02:47 GMT
i don't like zhang wuji, zhao min, AND zhou zhiruo. the plot is a bit typical of the genre. and the whole in-fighting between sects doesn't get as nasty as XAJH or wen rui'an's xiao xia. Understand. The Zhao Min vs Zhou Zhiruo fangirls spat on some forums can be annoying. All for Zhang Wuji. The plot may be typical because we know it so well, lol. the ROCH plot is even better known, given the number of adaptations. but it's still a better story that HSDS, which just rehashes all the wuxia tropes. ZWJ may be less dull than YCZ, but their wishy-washiness is equally annoying.
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Post by atumiwa on Jan 5, 2022 6:15:02 GMT
many readers who read the novel version, prefer xiao ao jiang hu over trilogy condor heroes, but when adapted to screen or drama, i wonder why xiao ao jiang hu is always become mess and low quality
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