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Post by Admin on Jun 16, 2023 3:28:23 GMT
Spot on, because it is easy to remember. By the way, the 床 in this poem is often mistaken for a bed. It is a platform, not a bed in a bedroom in some house. 床 had a meaning beyond a bed, as evidenced in 牙床 yachuang,meaning jawbone. Yes. I usually use this website : so.gushiwen.cn/ to find the meaning of poems. and for this poem : 译文及注释 译文 明亮的月光洒在窗户纸上,好像地上泛起了一层白霜。 我抬起头来,看那天窗外空中的明月,不由得低头沉思,想起远方的家乡。 注释 静夜思:静静的夜里,产生的思绪。 床:今传五种说法。 一指井台。已经有学者撰文考证过。中国教育家协会理事程实将考证结果写成论文发表在刊物上,还和好友创作了《诗意图》。 二指井栏。从考古发现来看,中国最早的水井是木结构水井。古代井栏有数米高,成方框形围住井口,防止人跌入井内,这方框形既像四堵墙,又像古代的床。因此古代井栏又叫银床,说明井和床有关系,其关系的发生则是由于两者在形状上的相似和功能上的类同。古代井栏专门有一个字来指称,即“韩”字。《说文》释“韩”为“井垣也”,即井墙之意。 三“床”即“窗”的通假字。本诗中的‘床’字,是争论和异议的焦点。我们可以做一下基本推理。本诗的写作背景是在一个明月夜,很可能是月圆前后,作者由看到月光,再看到明月,又引起思乡之情。 既然作者抬头看到了明月,那么作者不可能身处室内,在室内随便一抬头,是看不到月亮的。因此我们断定,‘床’是室外的一件物什,至于具体是什么,很难考证。从意义上讲,‘床’可能与‘窗’通假,而且在窗户前面是可能看到月亮的。但是,参照宋代版本,‘举头望山月’,便可证实作者所言乃是室外的月亮。从时间上讲,宋代版本比明代版本在对作者原意的忠诚度上,更加可靠。 四取本义,即坐卧的器具,《诗经·小雅·斯干》有“载寐之牀”,《易·剥牀·王犊注》亦有“在下而安者也。”之说,讲得即是卧具。 五马未都等认为,床应解释为胡床。胡床,亦称“交床”、“交椅”、“绳床”。古时一种可以折叠的轻便坐具,马扎功能类似小板凳,但人所坐的面非木板,而是可卷折的布或类似物,两边腿可合起来。现代人常为古代文献中或诗词中的“胡床”或“床”所误。至迟在唐时,“床”仍然是“胡床”(即马扎,一种坐具)。 疑:好像。 ======= So yeah, this 床 in this poem should be an outdoor platform
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Post by atumiwa on Jun 16, 2023 6:55:50 GMT
kyc Admin chefyingfound this post by fellow indonesian on local facebook group i use google translate: (spoiler alert, very long text) 4. Tang Poetry Anthology
Finally we come to the core of the discussion of this article. The 3 variables above have often been used by Jin Yong fans to determine the timeline of Liancheng Jue's story, but until now I have never found anyone discussing it from the Tang poetry anthology book side.
Liancheng Jue's swordsmanship is also known as Tangshi Jianfa 唐詩劍法 (Tang Poetry Swordsmanship) because his sword moves are based on chants from poetry compilation books by poets of the Tang dynasty.
The Tangshi Xuanji 唐詩選集 (Tang poetry anthology) book on which this swordsmanship is based is a book that actually existed in real history.
The problem is, there are 3 kinds of famous Tang poetry anthology books that exist in the real world, namely books published during the Song dynasty by Liu Kezhuang, books published during the Ming dynasty by Li Panlong and books published during the Qing dynasty by Sun Zhu.
Considering that Liancheng Jue's story takes place during the Qing dynasty, we will discuss only the 2 closest possibilities, namely:
1. by Li Panlong 李攀竜 entitled Tangshi Xuan 唐詩選 (Anthology of Tang Poetry)
2. Sun Zhu 孫洙's Tangshi Sanbaishou 唐詩三百首 (300 Main Tang Poems).
Tangshi Xuan was first published during the reign of the Wanli emperor of the Ming dynasty after the death of Li Panlong. This poetry anthology book is quite popular because it is considered to be more thorough in selecting Tang poetry compiled by Liu Kezhuang during the Song dynasty era. Liu Kezhuang's compilation of Tang poetry contains more than 1,000 poems, while Li Panlong selected even more stringently so that there are around 465 poems recorded in Tangshi Xuan.
Li Panlong was an official of the Ming empire who was also a classical Confucian writer who joined the influential literary group Houqizi 后七子.
The Houqizi 后七子 group consisted of 7 literati who concurrently served as high-ranking officials of the Ming government in the era of the Jiajing to Longqing emperors. Their influence in the literary world of the Ming dynasty was very large and influenced many groups of writers until the time of the Qing dynasty.
Tangshi Xuan was brought by the Japanese during the reign of the Tokugawa Shogun and quickly became a popular book among Japanese literati. This book is also one of the references for the use of kanji in Japanese literature in the Edo era.
After the Ming dynasty collapsed and was replaced by the Qing dynasty, the young Kangxi emperor ordered that all Tang dynasty poetry be collected and put into a collection called Quan Tangshi 全唐詩 (Complete collection of Tang poetry) containing 49,000 poems. With too large a number, Quan Tangshi is certainly not popular among the people.
At the beginning of the reign of the Qianlong emperor (grandson of the Kangxi emperor), the anti-Qing movement began to emerge which had died down in the middle of the Kangxi era.
Among them is the pacifist movement spearheaded by a literary organization influenced by Houqizi, they lean toward Ming loyalists. Among these literary men there were those who used the Tang poetry in the Tangshi Xuan compilation to inflame anti-Qing fervor. The Qing government, of course, began to slowly ban the circulation of this book, and the Houqizi classic Confucian literary organization itself was severely suppressed by the Qing government.
It wasn't long before rumors emerged that Tangshi Xuan was a fake work by a ghost writer using the name Li Panlong, causing Tangshi Xuan's book to decline in popularity.
At that time the literary Sun Zhu was still selecting more stringent Tang poetry and of course eliminating the poetry used by Ming loyalists. Sun Zhu published some 300 Tang poems in 1763 of his selection in the Tangshi Sanbaishou.
With the publication of Sun Zhu's Tangshi Sanbaishou, Tangshi Xuan's book, which had faded in popularity, was replaced by Tangshi Sanbaishou. Even Sun Zhu's anthology is considered the best Tang poetry anthology to date and is used as learning material in Chinese public schools today.
The Qing government also unsparingly banned Tangshi Xuan's book with the Tangshi Sanbaishou book. The Qianlong government published the literary catalog Siku Quanshu Zongmu Tiyao 欽定四庫全書總目提要 in which it openly accused Tangshi Xuan's book of being a forgery. That's why Tangshi Xuan is almost extinct from public library collections in China.
Luckily, there are still many Tangshi Xuan books found in Japan, so they still exist and don't just disappear.
So, since Wu Liuqi, who ruled Tangshi Jianfa, lived in the young Kangxi era, of course, it is impossible for the Tangshi Sanbaishou, which was just published during the Qianglong period, to be used as the basis for Tang poetry swordsmanship techniques. So there was only one Tang poetry collection book that became a reference, namely the work of Li Panlong.
Most likely, there was a master swordsman who was also a literary expert who lived during the Ming dynasty. He was inspired when he read Tangshi Xuan and was inspired to create sword moves based on the poetry in Tangshi Xuan. This swordsmanship was called Liancheng Jue or Tangshi Jianfa and was passed down to his students until Wu Liuqi's time and passed on to Mei Niansheng's generation.
This means that it is impossible for Liancheng Jue's story to take place during the Qianlong reign and after.
Final Conclusion
Based on the fact that the story of Liancheng Jue takes place in the Qing dynasty era, after the middle Kangxi era, before the Qianglong era, this means that Liancheng Jue predates the story of the Sword and the Scriptures and the Flying Race.
Based on the appearance of Wu Liuqi in Lu Ding Ji and the whereabouts of his son Wu Baoyu, many concluded that Mei Niansheng was still of the same generation as Wu Baoyu. By taking the median value and the average age of the characters, it means that the setting for Liancheng Jue's story is at the end of the Kangxi era to the beginning of the new Yongzheng ascending the throne, which is around 1715 to 1725.
Alternatively, if Mei Niansheng turns out to be one generation below Wu Baoyu, this means that the story of Liancheng Jue takes place during the reign of the Yongzheng emperor.
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Post by Admin on Jun 19, 2023 5:15:06 GMT
kyc Admin chefyingfound this post by fellow indonesian on local facebook group i use google translate: (spoiler alert, very long text) Imho, determining Lian Cheng Jue timeline only by the existence of Tang Poem Anthology seems a bit too naive. The reasons are : whether the novel mentioned the "Tang Poem" or the "Tang Poem Anthology" . Tang Poem Anthology consists of many Tang poems. And there were a lot of Tang Poems which were not included in the Tang Poem Anthology. Also, since the late Southern Song Dynasty, there have been many attempts to compile the Tang poems. Li Panlong and Sun Zhu's versions are just two well-known legally published versions. Anyway, I baidu Lian Cheng Jue, and found out some useful info to determine the timeline: 1. According to the novel, Emperor Yuan of Liang left a batch of treasures that have been missing. Eight hundred years later, this treasure emerged in Liancheng Sword Manual. The reign of Emperor Yuan of Liang lasted from AD 508 - 555 years, so 800 years later, should be at the end of the Yuan Dynasty and the early Ming Dynasty. 2. using the magistrate ranks mentioned in the novel, it could be determined that the event could not possibly happen in the Qing Dynasty. 3. using the names of the prefecture and county mentioned in the novel, it could be determined that the event happened after the Ming Dynasty founding and before the Emperor Jiajing of the Ming Dynasty. Point 2 and 3 are very long to explain, so I just make them short. I just can't believe how Jin Yong - in an era before the internet - could be so detailed in writing his novels. He indeed did a lot of research for his novels. And I guess this is what makes his novels classics and timeless. One almost can't even find any flaws or wrong details in his novel
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Post by kyc on Jun 19, 2023 8:24:53 GMT
kyc Admin chefyingfound this post by fellow indonesian on local facebook group i use google translate: (spoiler alert, very long text) Imho, determining Lian Cheng Jue timeline only by the existence of Tang Poem Anthology seems a bit too naive. The reasons are : whether the novel mentioned the "Tang Poem" or the "Tang Poem Anthology" . Tang Poem Anthology consists of many Tang poems. And there were a lot of Tang Poems which were not included in the Tang Poem Anthology. Also, since the late Southern Song Dynasty, there have been many attempts to compile the Tang poems. Li Panlong and Sun Zhu's versions are just two well-known legally published versions. Anyway, I baidu Lian Cheng Jue, and found out some useful info to determine the timeline: 1. According to the novel, Emperor Yuan of Liang left a batch of treasures that have been missing. Eight hundred years later, this treasure emerged in Liancheng Sword Manual. The reign of Emperor Yuan of Liang lasted from AD 508 - 555 years, so 800 years later, should be at the end of the Yuan Dynasty and the early Ming Dynasty. 2. using the magistrate ranks mentioned in the novel, it could be determined that the event could not possibly happen in the Qing Dynasty. 3. using the names of the prefecture and county mentioned in the novel, it could be determined that the event happened after the Ming Dynasty founding and before the Emperor Jiajing of the Ming Dynasty. Point 2 and 3 are very long to explain, so I just make them short. I just can't believe how Jin Yong - in an era before the internet - could be so detailed in writing his novels. He indeed did a lot of research for his novels. And I guess this is what makes his novels classics and timeless. One almost can't even find any flaws or wrong details in his novel Lol, the main reason for placing A Deadly Secret in the Qing Dynasty is due to the illustrations, with queues and all. Since these drawings were authorized by JY, so... But JY fans tend to disagree about almost everything.😅 Edit: In the 3rd edition, JY added this, conclusively setting the era in the Qing Dynasty: 到得大清康熙年间,忽有一位身具高强武功的高僧驻锡荆州天宁寺,无意中发现了宝藏...
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Post by kyc on Jun 19, 2023 9:04:44 GMT
Spot on, because it is easy to remember. By the way, the 床 in this poem is often mistaken for a bed. It is a platform, not a bed in a bedroom in some house. 床 had a meaning beyond a bed, as evidenced in 牙床 yachuang,meaning jawbone. Yes. I usually use this website : so.gushiwen.cn/ to find the meaning of poems. and for this poem : 译文及注释 译文 明亮的月光洒在窗户纸上,好像地上泛起了一层白霜。 我抬起头来,看那天窗外空中的明月,不由得低头沉思,想起远方的家乡。 注释 静夜思:静静的夜里,产生的思绪。 床:今传五种说法。 一指井台。已经有学者撰文考证过。中国教育家协会理事程实将考证结果写成论文发表在刊物上,还和好友创作了《诗意图》。 二指井栏。从考古发现来看,中国最早的水井是木结构水井。古代井栏有数米高,成方框形围住井口,防止人跌入井内,这方框形既像四堵墙,又像古代的床。因此古代井栏又叫银床,说明井和床有关系,其关系的发生则是由于两者在形状上的相似和功能上的类同。古代井栏专门有一个字来指称,即“韩”字。《说文》释“韩”为“井垣也”,即井墙之意。 三“床”即“窗”的通假字。本诗中的‘床’字,是争论和异议的焦点。我们可以做一下基本推理。本诗的写作背景是在一个明月夜,很可能是月圆前后,作者由看到月光,再看到明月,又引起思乡之情。 既然作者抬头看到了明月,那么作者不可能身处室内,在室内随便一抬头,是看不到月亮的。因此我们断定,‘床’是室外的一件物什,至于具体是什么,很难考证。从意义上讲,‘床’可能与‘窗’通假,而且在窗户前面是可能看到月亮的。但是,参照宋代版本,‘举头望山月’,便可证实作者所言乃是室外的月亮。从时间上讲,宋代版本比明代版本在对作者原意的忠诚度上,更加可靠。 四取本义,即坐卧的器具,《诗经·小雅·斯干》有“载寐之牀”,《易·剥牀·王犊注》亦有“在下而安者也。”之说,讲得即是卧具。 五马未都等认为,床应解释为胡床。胡床,亦称“交床”、“交椅”、“绳床”。古时一种可以折叠的轻便坐具,马扎功能类似小板凳,但人所坐的面非木板,而是可卷折的布或类似物,两边腿可合起来。现代人常为古代文献中或诗词中的“胡床”或“床”所误。至迟在唐时,“床”仍然是“胡床”(即马扎,一种坐具)。 疑:好像。 ======= So yeah, this 床 in this poem should be an outdoor platform I'm a bit confused. How do you know 床 refers to an outdoor platform? It seems to be a seat or bench of some kind?
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Post by Admin on Jun 20, 2023 5:33:11 GMT
I'm a bit confused. How do you know 床 refers to an outdoor platform? It seems to be a seat or bench of some kind? 床 -- that "fence" which could be used as a bench - sometimes it's made of stone or brick. The poem mentioned that he was gazing at the moon, then he was supposed to be outdoors. With the layout and architecture of the ancient Chinese buildings, it's actually difficult to catch the moon view from indoors.
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Post by Admin on Jun 20, 2023 5:40:32 GMT
Lol, the main reason for placing A Deadly Secret in the Qing Dynasty is due to the illustrations, with queues and all. Since these drawings were authorized by JY, so... But JY fans tend to disagree with almost everything.😅 Edit: In the 3rd edition, JY added this, conclusively setting the era in the Qing Dynasty: 到得大清康熙年间,忽有一位身具高强武功的高僧驻锡荆州天宁寺,无意中发现了宝藏... Gosh! Then he was supposed to make some minor changes to the story too. The magistrate ranks mentioned in Lian Cheng Jue, existed in Ming Dynasty, but were then eliminated in Qing Dynasty. anyway... although I like the reign of Kangxi and Yongzheng's history, but I really hate wuxia in the Qing Dynasty setting. No reasons why though...
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Post by atumiwa on Jun 22, 2023 9:17:57 GMT
Lol, the main reason for placing A Deadly Secret in the Qing Dynasty is due to the illustrations, with queues and all. Since these drawings were authorized by JY, so... But JY fans tend to disagree with almost everything.😅 Edit: In the 3rd edition, JY added this, conclusively setting the era in the Qing Dynasty: 到得大清康熙年间,忽有一位身具高强武功的高僧驻锡荆州天宁寺,无意中发现了宝藏... Gosh! Then he was supposed to make some minor changes to the story too. The magistrate ranks mentioned in Lian Cheng Jue, existed in Ming Dynasty, but were then eliminated in Qing Dynasty. anyway... although I like the reign of Kangxi and Yongzheng's history, but I really hate wuxia in the Qing Dynasty setting. No reasons why though... yeah, jin yong didnt delete the magistrate rank in 3rd edition, so it's become flaw... or he just deviated his story from history. so in the 3rd edition, as stated it's 100% Qing dynasty, we just dont know what year of range to be precise , that's why we see many speculations created by netter based on points and clues found in novel. Which theory is the best? i dont know... i am not good in chinese history, culture, and literature
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2023 8:44:11 GMT
Gosh! Then he was supposed to make some minor changes to the story too. The magistrate ranks mentioned in Lian Cheng Jue, existed in Ming Dynasty, but were then eliminated in Qing Dynasty. anyway... although I like the reign of Kangxi and Yongzheng's history, but I really hate wuxia in the Qing Dynasty setting. No reasons why though... yeah, jin yong didnt delete the magistrate rank in 3rd edition, so it's become flaw... or he just deviated his story from history. so in the 3rd edition, as stated it's 100% Qing dynasty, we just dont know what year of range to be precise , that's why we see many speculations created by netter based on points and clues found in novel. Which theory is the best? i dont know... i am not good in chinese history, culture, and literature I guess, nobody's perfect; including Jin Yong And it's tough to be perfect, particularly in Chinese history context - as sometimes, even with the same name, but it's different in hierarchy or meaning. For example: who would have thought that Beijing (literally means: Northern Capital) was once in a certain era called Nanjing (The Southern Capital)?
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Post by kyc on Jun 25, 2023 8:53:13 GMT
yeah, jin yong didnt delete the magistrate rank in 3rd edition, so it's become flaw... or he just deviated his story from history. so in the 3rd edition, as stated it's 100% Qing dynasty, we just dont know what year of range to be precise , that's why we see many speculations created by netter based on points and clues found in novel. Which theory is the best? i dont know... i am not good in chinese history, culture, and literature I guess, nobody's perfect; including Jin Yong And it's tough to be perfect, particularly in Chinese history context - as sometimes, even with the same name, but it's different in hierarchy or meaning. For example: who would have thought that Beijing (literally means: Northern Capital) was once in a certain era called Nanjing (The Southern Capital)? True, and there's no internet in his time as well.
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