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Post by siuyiu on Nov 13, 2014 18:30:22 GMT
"romance" is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to these quasi-historical tales. it's not about romance as we now know it. and anyway, women were chattel back then. just think of how cao cao's daughter-in-law was "fought over" by father and his two sons, with the eldest winning because he claimed her first. that she already had a husband and technically belonged to her husband's family didn't seem to matter. or think of how diao chen was used as bait to cause a rift between dong zhuo and lu bu. so, liu bei and sun quan's sister not having a fairytale ending is of no consequence in the political games being played out.
just sayin'.
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Post by chefying on Nov 14, 2014 16:48:21 GMT
"romance" is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to these quasi-historical tales. it's not about romance as we now know it. and anyway, women were chattel back then. just think of how cao cao's daughter-in-law was "fought over" by father and his two sons, with the eldest winning because he claimed her first. that she already had a husband and technically belonged to her husband's family didn't seem to matter. or think of how diao chen was used as bait to cause a rift between dong zhuo and lu bu. so, liu bei and sun quan's sister not having a fairytale ending is of no consequence in the political games being played out. I agree with you that "romance" is a misnomer, and it certainly is not about romance as we now know it. \ In this link, www.google.com.my/?gws_rd=cr&ei=6TBmVKqgJMaSuATw-YGIAw#q=romance%2C+meaning , I found that one of the (older) meaning of the word "Romance" (under item 3)is: a medieval tale dealing with a hero of chivalry, of the kind common in the Romance languages. "the Arthurian romances" Item 4 describes "romance" as:- a work of fiction depicting a setting and events remote from everyday life, especially one of a kind popular in the 16th and 17th centuries. "Elizabethan pastoral romances" Now I know why it is called "Romance of the Three Kingdoms".
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Post by siuyiu on Nov 14, 2014 19:28:32 GMT
chefying haha, yes. the term had much broader associations than we now know. it's a pity when words get sloughed of their myriad of meanings and uses, though.
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Post by chefying on Nov 16, 2014 4:09:23 GMT
A screen-wall facing the door of the Guan Yu temple Jade Spring Hill has a carving of the life of Guan Yu... On the extreme right hand side of this carving depicts the enlightenment of Guan Yu's spirit, and his subsequent deification. You would observe a monk, Guan Yu and his faithful follower, and behind them, the metal pagoda that is the fame of Jade Spring Hill. The stone carving on the screen above echos the details in this painting of the Deification of Guan Yu. The painting hangs in the temple on Nan Ping Hill, at Chi Bi (Red Cliff) where Zhuge Liang was supposed to have summoned the East Wind. According to wikipedia, Guan Yu was deified as early as the Sui Dynasty (581–618). Guan Yu was successively bestowed more and higher honours. Again quoting wikikpedia, "The escalation of Guan Yu's status to that of an emperor took place during the Ming Dynasty. In 1614, the Wanli Emperor bestowed on Guan Yu the title of "Saintly Emperor Guan the Great God Who Demons of the Three Worlds and Whose Awe Spreads Far and Moves Heaven" ( 三界伏魔大神天尊關聖帝君). During the Qing Dynasty, the Shunzhi Emperor gave Guan Yu the title of "Zhongyi Shenwu Great Saintly Emperor Guan" ( 忠義神武關聖大帝) in 1644. This title was expanded to "The Grand Emperor Zhongyi Shenwu Lingyou Renyong Weixian Hugu Baomin Jingcheng Suijing Yizan Xuande Guan Sheng Dadi" ( 仁勇威顯護國保民精誠綏靖翊贊宣德 忠義神武關聖大帝), a total of 24 Chinese characters, by mid-19th century#. This name is often shortened to "Saint of War" ( 武聖), which is of the same rank as Confucius, who was known as the "Saint of Culture" ( 文聖) during the same period." #There is an error in the translation of the title. The last two words, "Dadi" means "Grand Emperor" - so, the translation of the title which starts with "The Grand Emperor..." should not have "... Dadi" at the end - it is a repetition error.
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Post by chefying on Nov 17, 2014 15:40:45 GMT
Of the three sworn brothers (viz., Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei), the next to perish after Guan Yu was Zhang Fei. Zhang Fei Temple 张飞庙 is located at YunYang 云阳 Town, along the banks of the Yangtze River, close to and downstream of the larger town of Fengjie 奉节. Fengjie Town is very close the the Qutang Gorge 瞿塘峡 of the Yangtze Three Gorges fame. Sailing downstream towards Qutang Gorge from Fengjie Town, the Zhang Fei Temple will be visible around this area. This is not the true location of the Zhang Fei Temple. Once, the Zhang Fei Temple was built on the south bank of the Yangtze River in YunYang town. Due to the rise of the Yangtze River by the construction of the Yangtze Dam, the temple was taken apart on 2002 and moved about 35 km (20 miles) west and upon higher grounds and on the north bank of the Yangtze River, not the south bank. Since all is well since its re-opening in 2003, I presume Zhang Fei did not really mind this move. Credit must be given because the layout of the present temple is the same as it was in the old site, and the whole building(s) were taken apart at the old site and reassembled in the new site. This is what it looks like now in the new site. Oh, a bit of self indulgence here... after I had taken the photo of the temple, and I found a stamp that has almost the exact picture of the same temple! The main (?) entrance on the side of the temple can be clearly seen on the right hand side of the stamp. In my photo, this entrance is blocked by plants and foliage.
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Post by chefying on Nov 19, 2014 8:17:10 GMT
According to the internet, the temple was moved in year 2002 - I presume this was when they started dismantling the building. It seems they did not take that long to re-assemble it, according to the internet, the Zhang Fei Temple was re-opened in 2003. I visited the temple in year 2010..
By the way, the temple in Yunyang was quite a way from Chongqing. I made two stops and spent a night at each stop while making my way to Yunyang. There are ferries that ply the Yangtze and they stop at Yunyang to allow passengers to disembark to view the temple. However, that often takes place at night. I understand the temple, which is supposed to close at 5 pm., makes allowances for these visitors from the ferries. The temple charges about RMB30 per head per entry.
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Post by chefying on Nov 19, 2014 8:18:06 GMT
Zhang Fei was actually murdered in Langzhong Town 阆中, situated North of Chongqing City 重庆 and North East of Chengdu 成都. This event is described like this in Zhang Fei Temple.... This incident happened about 1700 years ago, so I suppose the "grudge of a thousand years" has sort of dissipated. This bronze statue in Zhang Fei Temple depicts Zhang Fei's death. Indeed, it was an inside job because Zhang Fei was well known to sleep with his eyes (half?) opened - those who were not close to him would be left guessing if Zhang Fei was asleep or awake by his "sleepless" eyes, complicating an assassination. The statues used to be made of clay, but they were destroyed during the Cultural Revolution. These bronze figures were cast in 1981.
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Post by chefying on Nov 19, 2014 8:22:44 GMT
Chapter 81 of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms detailed the assassination of Zhang Fei. Reading that chapter again, I am not too sure if I should be on the side of Zhang Fei or his assassins. Upon the news of Guan Yu's death, Zhang Fei was sad and depressed, and sought solace in liquor. He also unleashed his bad temper on his subordinates, and a few had even died under his lashes/lashes under his instructions. Fan Jiang 范疆 and Zhang Da 张达 were Zhang Fei's officers who were ordered to prepare mourning attire in white for the army to wear went Zhang Fei's army attack the Wu Kingdom. When they asked for extra time, Zhang Fei had them whipped and demanded that they have the mourning clothes ready by the time Zhang Fei launch his attack. Since it was impossible for the two to finish in time - which would certainly attract a death sentence from Zhang Fei - they decided to assassinate Zhang Fei instead. Zhang Fei slept with his eyes open, but his snores gave hint that Zhang Fei was in fact in deep slumber - and that was when Fan Jiang and Zhang Da struck. While the book stated Fan Jiang and Zhang Da fled to Wu, it did not detail these two murderers throwing Zhang Fei's head into the Yangtze River. Zhang Fei's head was eventually recovered. According to the legend, a fisherman dreamt of Zhang Fei on one night, and when the fisherman went fishing the next day, his net fished up Zhang Fei's head. Subsequently, and a temple in honour of Zhang Fei was built where his head was found. This temple has now been moved to accommodate the rising waters caused by the damming of the Yangtze River. The temple is actually not too big - more wide than deep - because it was built along the slope of the hill. This is the main (?) entrance by the side of the temple..... ... and a close up of the plaque on top of the door - it says Marquis Zhang Huan Temple. The smaller words below says Mountains and Waters (Rivers) have spirits.
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Post by chefying on Nov 21, 2014 13:16:15 GMT
Anyway, inside the temple was also a platform depicting the Fellowship ceremony in the Peach Garden where the three - Liu Bei, Guan Yu and Zhang Fei - became sworn brothers. I remember reading from somewhere how the three met and decided to become sworn brothers, and how they decided for themselves their ranking in the brotherhood. The peach garden in which they swore brotherhood was in the back of Zhang Fei's farm (he was a pig farmer). I think it was Liu Bei who said that whoever manages to get closest to the "tou" 头 - head of the tree would be declared the eldest. Zhang Fei climbed the highest, while Guan Yu settled for somewhere in the middle. Liu Bei sat at the foot of the tree. Zhang Fei declared himself the eldest, upon which Liu Bei said Zhang Fei was actually ranked the youngest. The contest was that whoever manages to be closest to the head of the tree would be the eldest and by default the leader - since the tree grows from the ground that is where the head (beginning) is. And thus it was that Liu Bei became the eldest of the three.
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Post by chefying on Nov 21, 2014 13:16:49 GMT
As a by the by, these stamps show how Zhang Fei is depicted in Chinese Opera - his face mask is on the left, Zhang Fei and his costume is in the middle. The stamp on the right shows Cao Cao, with his face mask (predominantly white to show he is the bad guy) in his costume. A final note on Zhang Fei - in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Zhang Fei is often depicted as a brash and impetuous person, with a passion for strong liquor. In San Guo Zhi 三国志 - the historical presentation of the events during this period, there were no direct references of these traits in Zhang Fei. Perhaps it can be said that the author, Luo Guanzhong, had darkened Zhang Fei's name. No doubt Luo Guanzhong would claim artistic license.
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Post by chefying on Nov 23, 2014 14:48:56 GMT
Not too long after Guan Yu's execution, Cao Cao also died – most probably from brain tumour. The control of the Eastern Han Court fell into the hands of Cao Cao's son, Cao Pei. Cao Pei forced the Eastern Han Emperor to abdicate in favour of himself, and proclaimed his reign the Wei Dynasty. Liu Bei's claim to power was that he was a (distant) descendant of the Han line. In Chapter 80 of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms, at the behest of Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei proclaimed himself Emperor of Shu of the Han dynasty now that the Eastern Han Emperor had abdicated. Zhuge Liang reasoned that in this manner, the Han lineage could continue. Guan Yu died in the hands of Sun Quan of the Wu Kingdom, and Liu Bei wanted to attack Wu to avenge the death of Guan Yu. The Shu ministers, including Zhuge Liang, disagreed – after all, the whole reason for the existence of the Shu Kingdom was to repel the Cao family of the Wei Dynasty, who were usurpers of the Han throne. Liu Bei was momentarily swayed by this reasoning – until the news of Zhang Fei’s assassination reached him. Liu Bei was now even more adamant on attacking Wu since Zhang Fei’s murderers had fled to the Wu Kingdom. Liu Bei’s troops marched to Wu. At Yiling (present day Yichang), the Eastern Wu commander Lu Xun 陆逊 refused to engage with Liu Bei's troops and chose to defend his position. Liu Bei's army were in for a long drawn stalemate, and by summer, his army was badly affected by the hot weather. In Chapter 83, Liu Bei set camp in the cool shade of a forest. In Chapter 84, the Wu army, seeing that the summer heat had began to dry the forest, attacked Liu Bei's camp using fire. This event was known as the Battle of Xiaoting 猇亭之戰Liu Bei forces were routed, and Liu Bei was forced flee to Bai Di Cheng 白帝城 - White Emperor City. Bai Di Cheng is now an island since the rising of the waters due to the Yangtze Dam. It is accessed via this bridge. Entrance to Bai Di Cheng.... A room inside Bai Di Temple at Bai Di Cheng described Liu Bei's defeat by fire thus.... It is interesting to reflect upon Cao Cao's defeat by fire at the Red Cliffs, and that Liu Bei's present predicament had the root cause in fire.
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Post by chefying on Nov 26, 2014 5:32:28 GMT
And so it was that Liu Bei, defeated, was ailing in Baidi Cheng 白帝城- White Emperor City. Chapter 85 of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms told that, one evening, in his sleep, Liu Bei "saw" his two sworn brothers visit him from the land of shades (the nether world). They came to inform him that soon, the three shall once again be together. At these words, Liu Bei woke to a start, and realised his end was near. He summoned his Prime Minister and other high officers from the capital, Chengdu, to give them his final instructions. His eldest son an heir, Liu Shan 禅 (this name is pronounced Shan, not Chan - there are two ways to read this word) was left back in Chengdu to keep an eye on the capital. Zhuge Liang brought Liu Bei's two younger sons to White Emperor City to see their father, probably for the last time. Before one and all, Liu Bei entrusted 托 his throne and children (soon to be orphans 孤儿) to Zhuge Liang. And thus, the phrase 白城托孤 was born. It means "Entrusting the Orphans at White City." This event is displayed in Bai Cheng Miao - White City Temple in White Emperor City. Entrance to White City Temple... The next photo is the depiction of the huge burden thrown on Zhuge Liang's shoulders... Liu Bei's two younger sons can be seen prostrate before Zhuge Liang and their father. The figure in military gear and purple robe next to the bed near Liu Bei's head is supposed to be Zhao Yun. The second figure from the left, in short sleeves, is Zhang Fei's son. The China postage stamp depicted it this way....
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Post by Admin on Nov 26, 2014 7:46:04 GMT
Thanks Chef. Really appreciate and like this thread.
I watched Romance of Three Kingdom the 90s and the latest edition series. I have to say, that it's kinda pretty sad ending. Finally, I concluded that Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei, Guan Yu, because of what they thought as the action of righteousness and loyalty, they did a lot of mistakes that in the end harmed a lot of peoples.
Zhuge Liang knew for sure that Liu Bei's son was not capable, but when Liu Bei asked him to replace him, instead he insisted that the throne should be passed to A Dou (Liu Bei's son). A Dou...was a stupid young man, actually the current Chinese language used the word "dou" to described something stupid or silly. And this word got the credit from this A Dou!
I think that Sun Quan had the balance between Caocao (who would do anything even the cruelest way to achieve what he wanted) and Liu Bei (who always because of 忠 and 义 did a lot if mistakes). None of those three are perfect. But I think that Sun Quan is the best among those three.
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Post by chefying on Nov 27, 2014 7:33:21 GMT
Thanks Chef. Really appreciate and like this thread. Most welcome, Admin. I had a great time on this trip - but adventure-wise, my Xinjiang trip was more harrowing. I know everyone says that CaoCao is the villain in the story, "Romance of the Three Kingdoms." The more I look at it, the more I feel Zhuge Liang is the villain. I know my thinking is not quite the norm. This is my rational behind it:- Zhuge Liang knew that even with his help, the best that Zhuge Liang can do for Liu Bei is to secure for Liu Bei 1/3 of the Kingdom. No more, no less. Zhuge Liang knew that Liu Bei's claim to the throne was that Liu was a descendent of the Han House - no more, no less. Just because a person is the descendent does not make him a great leader, or a leader capable of leading a country to prosperity. With the emergence of a third power - that of the Liu Bei's Shu - many more wars were fought, and even more lives were taken. "一将功名万骨枯," I believe is what the poem read (the fame of a general lies on myriad decomposing bones). Did Zhuge Liang know that his emergence would result in more battles, and more dead bodies? How could he not know? Therefore, it would be worth asking what is Zhuge Liang's main reason for coming out to help Liu Bei? I felt Zhuge Liang should have kept himself in his straw hut.
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Post by chefying on Nov 27, 2014 7:47:51 GMT
When I was there, the White City Temple was under renovation but there are still gems to be found. I liked these two porcelain tile paintings - there were more - but this one was where Zhuge Liang used straw men to "borrow" arrows.... .... while this one was of Zhuge Liang's seventh capture and and seventh release of the King of the "Man" people in Southern China/Yunnan (Chapter 90). I think the name of the King (Chieftain) was Meng Hao. (a forumer in the previous wuxia site, Chen Guizhang, advised me that the correct name was actually Meng Huo ( 孟獲)) The China postage stamp depicted it this way.... By the way, is anyone aware that the Chinese plain steamed buns that we eat, now called Man Tou 馒头 is related to the defeat/subduing of the Man people? According to the story, Zhuge Liang won his battle, and was leading his troops back home. One night, they camped near a river but in the middle of the night, the murmur of the river became quite loud. Zhuge Liang did his divination and realised that the river spirits want a (human) sacrifice before allowing Zhuge Liang's troop to pass. Zhuge Liang was in a quandary. He just won a battle, who's life could be sacrifice to appease the river spirits? In the end, he asked his cook to make steamed buns shaped like human heads. He then used these steams buns as sacrifice, telling the river spirits that these are the heads of the Man people - i.e. Man Tou. With this bit of trickery, he managed to pacify the river spirits long enough to lead his troops across the river and back home. From this story came the naming of the plain buns Man Tou - or so I was told.
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