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Post by kyc on Jun 14, 2022 14:17:19 GMT
Most surnames in wuxia fiction are obviously of Han Chinese origins, since the setting is almost always ancient China. And most of the surnames from the Hundred Families' Surnames (Zhao, Qian, Sun, Li etc.) are of Han Chinese provenance.
I wonder however about the surnames not of Han Chinese provenance. One of them clearly is Nalan 納蘭, a Manchu surname, from which we get Nalan Xingde (a historical Qing dynasty poet featured in LYS's works) and Nalan Minghui. The famous Chinese Mainland singer Na Ying (那英), whose surname is Na, derives her surname as an abbreviated form of Nalan, specifically Yehe Nara hala 葉赫那拉氏.
Others are more ambiguous. Is Jin (金, Korean pronunciation Kim) one of the surnames with clear non-Han origins? I'm thinking of people like Jin Shiyi.
It gets more interesting with compound surnames. Compound surnames like Shangguan, Sima and Zhuge are of Han Chinese origins I think, but many others I'm not so sure.
Ouyang Feng is not Han Chinese. Is the surname Ouyang 歐陽 of non-Han provenance?
Murong Fu is not Han Chinese (at least his forefathers were not). Is Murong 慕容 a non-Han surname?
Is the surname Dugu 獨孤 of Han Chinese provenance? Is Dugu Qiubai even a Han Chinese?
What about Dongfang Bubai? What about his surname 東方?
One other surname I'm interested in is Tantai 澹臺. There's a major character in LYS's PZXYL (The Wanderer's Chronicles) who goes by the name Tantai Mieming 澹臺滅明. He was a historical figure, allegedly a descendant of one of Confucius's students. So does it mean he was Han Chinese?
The answers may be floating around the Internet or even on Wikipedia, but this strikes me as an interesting topic so I'm putting this up for discussion. In case you have any thoughts, please feel free to comment.
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 15, 2022 2:23:24 GMT
i have not verified with other sources, but according to wiki, these surnames are non-han (though where do you draw the line--plenty of non-han surnames got mixed in during the periods of disunion and plenty of "barbarian" tribes became sinicized): 沙吒 Shāzhā - Göktürk 完顏 Wányán - Jurchen 耶律 Yēlǜ - Khitan 愛新覺羅 Aisin Gioro - Manchurian 赫舍里 Hèsheli - Manchurian 納蘭 (纳兰) Nàlán - Manchurian; Variant of 叶赫那拉 (Yehenala) 孛兒只斤 Borjigin - Mongolian 阿史那 Ashina - Possibly Turkic 獨孤 Dúgū - Xianbei 賀蘭 Helan - Xianbei 賀若 Hèruò - Xianbei 万俟 Mòqí - Xianbei 慕容 Mùróng - Xianbei 拓跋 Tuòbá - Xianbei 尉遲 Yùchí - Xianbei 宇文 Yuwen - Xianbei 長孫 Zhangsun - Xianbei 爾朱 Erzhu - Xiongnu 赫連 Hèlián - Xiongnu 呼延 Hūyán - Xiongnu 星团 Xīngtuán - ? source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_compound_surname |
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Post by kyc on Jun 15, 2022 3:20:47 GMT
Thank you, siuyiu , I knew Wikipedia should have most of the answers, but a discussion makes everything more interesting. I'm just stating some of these surnames are of non-Han origins. I'm not a Han chauvinist, it doesn't matter to me if the greatest swordsman in JY fiction has non-Han Chinese ancestors. Like you said, where do you draw the line? Many Han Chinese in the north have mixed ancestry with the so-called "barbarian" tribes, those in the south definitely sinicized the original inhabitants there (who probably looked very Han Chinese themselves). The people who insisted on "pure lineage", like the ancient Egyptian royalty, were so crippled with genetic diseases we all know what happened. If Wikipedia is to be trusted (there is no good reason not to), Ouyang, Dongfang and Tantai are of Han Chinese origins, while the rest are not. I forgot about Yelü (Khitan) and Wanyan (Jurchen), both of which featured prominently in JY's fiction. That leaves Jin, which can derive from both Han and non-Han ethnic groups. It seems that many Mongolians, people of Qiang ancestry, Manchus (the royalty), and Koreans have this surname. A question: does anyone know which ethnic group Ouyang Feng is from? Or did my memory deceive me and he, too, is Han Chinese? |
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 15, 2022 4:45:19 GMT
kyc sorry: i did not mean to imply that you're a han chauvinist! i was just reacting to the wiki post trying to draw a line marking "these" as han and "those" as still-non-han! GL was especially fond of using "non-han" double-barreled surnames--ximen chuixue, sikong zhaixing, all the various shangguan characters, nangong ling, etc i know ouyang is pretty much the only and def the most common double-barreled surname for the cantonese bunch, and wiki says it is han in origin: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouyang i can't remember whether ouyang feng was ethnically han or not. how west is "west" in the LOCH-verse compared to modern day china? "the south" used to be just south of the yangtze, and guangdong was considered uncivilized territory. jin is also han--and quite the illustrious origins: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jin_(Chinese_surname)
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 15, 2022 4:51:59 GMT
i'm obviously biased, but of the double-barrel-surnamed characters i've come across so far, ximen chuixue is the coolest.  we should try and list all the double-barrel-surnamed characters in wuxia--there are a lot more than is proportional to how common the surnames were compared to the singular ones that most "han" possessed, even historically! |
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Post by kyc on Jun 15, 2022 5:00:06 GMT
LOL, I know you wasn't implying I am a Han chauvinist. I was just agreeing with you. It shouldn't matter. If I raised it, it was just to celebrate diversity in wuxia fiction.
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Post by kyc on Jun 15, 2022 5:02:34 GMT
I got the idea JY once called Ouyang Feng a huren (胡人), meaning he's not Han, or was I deluded?
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Post by yenchin on Jun 15, 2022 5:20:02 GMT
Duan Yu's mother Dao Baifeng (刀白鳳) is of Dai origin. JY didn't just come up with the surname Dao. In the Song Dynasty Dai leaders were given the surname by the emperor, and it is still a common surname used by the Chinese Dai groups. |
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Post by kyc on Jun 15, 2022 5:40:20 GMT
Duan Yu's mother Dao Baifeng (刀白鳳) is of Dai origin. JY didn't just come up with the surname Dao. In the Song Dynasty Dai leaders were given the surname by the emperor, and it is still a common surname used by the Chinese Dai groups. Yes, yes, good memory yenchin, and good point. |
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Post by machete on Jun 15, 2022 23:07:29 GMT
If Wikipedia is to be trusted (there is no good reason not to), Ouyang, Dongfang and Tantai are of Han Chinese origins, while the rest are not. I had a classmate with the Ouyang surname. In my country it is extremely rare to have locals with northeastern,northwestern or southwestern ancestry. Mostly all are of southeastern Han origin. |
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Post by kyc on Jun 17, 2022 6:27:33 GMT
GL was especially fond of using "non-han" double-barreled surnames--ximen chuixue, sikong zhaixing, all the various shangguan characters, nangong ling, etc i know ouyang is pretty much the only and def the most common double-barreled surname for the cantonese bunch, and wiki says it is han in origin: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouyang i can't remember whether ouyang feng was ethnically han or not. how west is "west" in the LOCH-verse compared to modern day china? "the south" used to be just south of the yangtze, and guangdong was considered uncivilized territory. To be honest, Ximen, Sikong, Shangguan and Nangong--according to Wikipedia--all have Han Chinese provenance. I'm not being anal here but I don't want that friend of yours to give strange stares if you suggest his or her ancestors were not Han Chinese. Some people can get offended. Yes, I agree Ximen Chuixue has just about the coolest name in wuxia! --- As for Ouyang Feng, Ouyang is a Han Chinese surname, but is Ouyang Feng Han Chinese? I decided to research my own question. Source: kknews.cc/entertainment/g3qbzl8.htmlClue one: Description: "身材高大，身穿白衣， 高鼻深目，脸须棕黄，英气勃勃，眼神如刀似剑，甚是锋锐，语声铿铿似金属之音。" In the bold parts, JY describes Ouyang Feng as having a "high nose bridge and deep-set eyes, his facial hair brownish yellow". The Han Chinese do not have brownish yellow hair, and the description of his eyes and nose are usually reserved for those with Caucasian or Central Asian blood. Clue two: In JY 3.0, someone once said in ROCH: "中神通重阳真人仙去多年，东邪黄岛主独来独往， 西毒非我辈中原汉人，南帝远在大理，都不是我大宋百姓。这个抗蒙保国盟的盟主，自是非北丐洪老前辈莫属。" Translated, the bold part would read: "The Western Venom is not a Han Chinese from the Central Plains like us." You can interpret this as: "he is not from Inner China but still Han Chinese", but I think most many people will interpret this as "he is not Han Chinese and not from Inner China." This fits in with the description above. So, even if you consider Ouyang Feng Han Chinese, he is probably more of non-Han descent than Han. Meaning there must have been more non-Han blood than Han blood in his genetic makeup. EDIT: 非我辈中原汉人 literally means "not a Han Chinese from the Central Plains like our generation". This can mean his Han blood has been diluted down the generations. Knowing JY's care in revision, this is quite likely. |
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 17, 2022 17:53:35 GMT
kyc LOL fair re: calling people "non-han" who consider themselves han! and even though you can interpret OYF's ancestry as "not necessarily han", i think most would read 非我辈中原汉人 and just consider OYF "non-chinese" in totality, as in not having any chinese blood. and yeah, the high bridge of the nose, deep-set eyes, and light hair would scream "foreigner" to most. and thinking about surnames also made me think of the differences between eastern and western descriptions of places and perceptions of places and peoples as influenced by geography: - i'll use Tolkien as an obvious and popular example: "east" is evil, "south" is foreign and mostly evil, "west" is across the sea and unknown--very much informed by european geography and bias/hatred of middle-east/muslim country (a la crusades mentality) - Chinese poetry: the river flows east (true of the 2 major rivers in the country) - wuxia/chinese stories: "north" and "south" are barbarian country, "west" is foreign, often evil (think ming sect in HSDS; OYF being "western poison"; etc)
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Post by kyc on Jun 18, 2022 10:04:53 GMT
kyc LOL fair re: calling people "non-han" who consider themselves han! and even though you can interpret OYF's ancestry as "not necessarily han", i think most would read 非我辈中原汉人 and just consider OYF "non-chinese" in totality, as in not having any chinese blood. and yeah, the high bridge of the nose, deep-set eyes, and light hair would scream "foreigner" to most. and thinking about surnames also made me think of the differences between eastern and western descriptions of places and perceptions of places and peoples as influenced by geography: - i'll use Tolkien as an obvious and popular example: "east" is evil, "south" is foreign and mostly evil, "west" is across the sea and unknown--very much informed by european geography and bias/hatred of middle-east/muslim country (a la crusades mentality) - Chinese poetry: the river flows east (true of the 2 major rivers in the country) - wuxia/chinese stories: "north" and "south" are barbarian country, "west" is foreign, often evil (think ming sect in HSDS; OYF being "western poison"; etc) Good point Tolkien vs wuxia! |
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Post by kyc on Jun 19, 2022 15:48:20 GMT
The West and the East conjure up different scenarios for me in wuxia fiction. The East: islands. A lot of islands, some dangerous, some icy, all exotic. Lingshe (Spirit Serpent) Island (HDSD), Peach Blossom Island (LOCH), Ice and Fire Island (HDSD), Divine Dragon Island ( The Deer and the Cauldron), Snake Island in LYS ( Lofty Waters Verdant Bow). The West: largely romantic, thanks to JY and LYS. For JY, Huo Qingtong and Princess Fragrance, Li Wenxiu also has her adventures there. For LYS, Hamaya, the White-haired Demoness, Mount Heaven is also in the West. Exotic beautiful women from the Western frontiers, heroes more heroic there. Exotic flowers. The Gobi Desert. The Gaochang Labyrinth. Even the Western frontier seems exotic in Gu Long. Isn't The Bordertown Wanderer set there too? Sometimes there are snow mountains, sometimes there are lots of undulating sand dunes. But when it comes to west of the west, maybe you end up with snakes and Ouyang Feng.  |
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 19, 2022 20:01:24 GMT
kyc   yeah, nothing exotic about OYF for sure!
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we should try and list all the double-barrel-surnamed characters in wuxia--there are a lot more than is proportional to how common the surnames were compared to the singular ones that most "han" possessed, even historically!
yeah, nothing exotic about OYF for sure!