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Post by reinafu on Feb 4, 2015 18:34:23 GMT
I just finished to watch the superb series Qing Ming Shang He Tu with Adam Cheng, which relates the story of the painter Zhang Ze Duan (as it's not a martial arts series, I won't write a review here...) and it seems that there are not many informations regarding this painter on the internet.
So, as you seem to be fond of history and of travels in China, I wonder if you might have some informations about Zhang Ze Duan. Wikipedia tells that he died in 1145, but the series shows him still alive in 1179 and shows that he kills himself and destroys his painting Qing Ming Shang He Tu, while wikipedia tells that the painting is in the Forbidden City, so, I wonder how faithfully is the series to the history and fi you could help me know a little bit more about this painter.
Also, is there somewhere on the internet where this painting can be properly seen ? Someone on Adam Cheng's forum gave me a link to English wikipedia, but the picture is so small that it's impossible to see the details of the painting...
Thanks for any answer.
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Post by reinafu on Feb 4, 2015 18:47:35 GMT
I just found a site where to watch the painting, here's the link for those who are interested in it : www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/painting-along-the-river.phpI wonder how many hours Zhang Ze Duan spent to give a so detailed painting...A work of a whole life...Very impressive !
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Post by reinafu on Feb 4, 2015 18:59:54 GMT
Also, as I don't have a great knowledge regarding Chinese history, I'd like to know if there were Mongol invasions during the Song Dynasty or if it was other peoples who invaded the Capital as it's shown in the series. According to the clothes they wear and to the way they quarter an enemy I deduced that it might be Mongols, but I'm not sure...
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Post by siuyiu on Feb 5, 2015 0:38:24 GMT
reinafu i can't answer your questions, but here's an animation of QMSHT that may be of interest:
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Post by reinafu on Feb 5, 2015 8:12:25 GMT
Thank you very much, it's superb !
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Post by chefying on Feb 7, 2015 15:16:10 GMT
So, as you seem to be fond of history and of travels in China, I wonder if you might have some informations about Zhang Ze Duan. Wikipedia tells that he died in 1145, but the series shows him still alive in 1179 and shows that he kills himself and destroys his painting Qing Ming Shang He Tu, while wikipedia tells that the painting is in the Forbidden City, so, I wonder how faithfully is the series to the history and fi you could help me know a little bit more about this painter. I tried to look up the BaiDu (the Chinese equivalent of Wikipedia) and it said that not much is known about the painter Zhang Ze Duan 张择端. BaiDu said he lived between C.E.1085 — C.E.1145, so it would seem that TVB did take a lot of artistic license on this story. I read an article on the QingMing Shanghe Tu, and it pointed out that the painting did not depict anyone "sweeping the tombs." This is significant because many people are familiar with the Qing Ming Festival, also known as the Festival of the Sweeping of the Tombs. Since Qing Ming is in the title of the painting, this painting is often translated as "River Scene on Qing Ming Festival Day." The article said this translation is incorrect - if it was supposed to depict KaiFeng City on Qing Ming day, it should show people doing the prayers to the deceased at the graveyard. After all, Qing Ming is one of the two days for this activity (the second day is Chong Yang 重阳 day. The article further explained that Qing Ming in the title of the painting merely claims that it was one clear and bright day in KaiFeng City. It had nothing to do with the Festival of the sweeping of the tombs. Sorry I cannot be of further help on this topic. The BaiDu article is here herebaike.baidu.com/link?url=5rUa1H9FqvhHu9jw0t3gy4AEgIZNcw5e_mEvJkLZRWoM4zELMovunmFuqKcHOTqfkTJLMt7Jhgz6zwhYAd8CEq
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Post by reinafu on Feb 7, 2015 15:45:04 GMT
Thank you very much for your efforts and informations.
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Post by chefying on Feb 7, 2015 16:24:33 GMT
reinafu you are most welcomed. I heard the red bridge depicted in the QingMing Shanghe Tu had been reconstructed, but I have not gone to see it yet.
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Post by yenchin on Feb 9, 2015 22:38:17 GMT
So, as you seem to be fond of history and of travels in China, I wonder if you might have some informations about Zhang Ze Duan. Wikipedia tells that he died in 1145, but the series shows him still alive in 1179 and shows that he kills himself and destroys his painting Qing Ming Shang He Tu, while wikipedia tells that the painting is in the Forbidden City, so, I wonder how faithfully is the series to the history and fi you could help me know a little bit more about this painter. From what I see on the net the series spans between Emperor Hui Zong of the Northern Song and Gao Zong of Southern Song. As Gao Zong was active until the 1160s and retired until his death in 1187 probably the makers took some creative freedom. The invasion force during this time are the Jurchens, who are mainly from northeast China (Manchuria before it was called Manchuria).
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Post by reinafu on Feb 10, 2015 9:52:56 GMT
Thank you very much for the precisions !!
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Post by Admin on May 8, 2015 6:54:40 GMT
So, as you seem to be fond of history and of travels in China, I wonder if you might have some informations about Zhang Ze Duan. Wikipedia tells that he died in 1145, but the series shows him still alive in 1179 and shows that he kills himself and destroys his painting Qing Ming Shang He Tu, while wikipedia tells that the painting is in the Forbidden City, so, I wonder how faithfully is the series to the history and fi you could help me know a little bit more about this painter. I tried to look up the BaiDu (the Chinese equivalent of Wikipedia) and it said that not much is known about the painter Zhang Ze Duan 张择端. BaiDu said he lived between C.E.1085 — C.E.1145, so it would seem that TVB did take a lot of artistic license on this story. I read an article on the QingMing Shanghe Tu, and it pointed out that the painting did not depict anyone "sweeping the tombs." This is significant because many people are familiar with the Qing Ming Festival, also known as the Festival of the Sweeping of the Tombs. Since Qing Ming is in the title of the painting, this painting is often translated as "River Scene on Qing Ming Festival Day." The article said this translation is incorrect - if it was supposed to depict KaiFeng City on Qing Ming day, it should show people doing the prayers to the deceased at the graveyard. After all, Qing Ming is one of the two days for this activity (the second day is Chong Yang 重阳 day. The article further explained that Qing Ming in the title of the painting merely claims that it was one clear and bright day in KaiFeng City. It had nothing to do with the Festival of the sweeping of the tombs. Sorry I cannot be of further help on this topic. The BaiDu article is here herebaike.baidu.com/link?url=5rUa1H9FqvhHu9jw0t3gy4AEgIZNcw5e_mEvJkLZRWoM4zELMovunmFuqKcHOTqfkTJLMt7Jhgz6zwhYAd8CEq My personal opinion (cause I haven't read any articles about this Qing Ming Shang He Tu, although I have this puzzle picture hang on my wall), QMSHT doesn't depict anyone "sweeping" the tomb, cause Qing Ming itself doesn't mean "sweeping the tomb" The Sweeping Tomb Festival is happened to be in Qing Ming, which is a term in Chinese calendar. I copy and paste this : Qīngmíng (pīnyīn) or Chīngmíng (MPS II) or Seimei (rōmaji) (Chinese and Japanese: 清明; Korean: 청명; Vietnamese: Thanh minh; literally: "clear and bright") is the name of the 5th solar term of the traditional East Asian lunisolar calendar, which divides a year into 24 solar terms (節氣). Qingming begins when the sun reaches the celestial longitude of 15° and ends when it reaches the longitude of 30°. It more often refers in particular to the day when the sun is exactly at the celestial longitude of 15°. In the Gregorian calendar, it usually begins around 4 April or 5 April and ends around 20 April. So basically the pictures QMSHT is a depiction of Kaifeng Bridge during a bright and clear day. that's my two cents. Perhaps I'm wrong.
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Post by reinafu on May 8, 2015 8:21:19 GMT
According to what I saw in the series, you may be right, because Zhang Ze Duan's ambition was to paint all what was happening along the river with as much details as possible in order that everyone can recognize oneself when he looked at the painting. In his opinion, it was a kind of historical testimonial for the future generations. At least, it's the interpretation done by the series and how I understood it when I watched it.
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Post by Admin on May 8, 2015 8:44:25 GMT
Also, as I don't have a great knowledge regarding Chinese history, I'd like to know if there were Mongol invasions during the Song Dynasty or if it was other peoples who invaded the Capital as it's shown in the series. According to the clothes they wear and to the way they quarter an enemy I deduced that it might be Mongols, but I'm not sure... during that time, the Mongolian hadn't have power yet. if the painter died around 1145, then probably the "barbarian invasion" was not from Mongolian, but from Jin Kingdom (Jurchen people) That Jin invasion to Biajing, was so horrible and known as Jing-Kang Incident. Which later in "The Legend of Condor Heroes", Guo XiaoTian and Yang Tiexin named theirs sons Jing and Kang to make them not forget this awful incident. Here is some reference : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jingkang_Incident
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Post by reinafu on May 8, 2015 12:34:50 GMT
Thank you very much for these informations and for the link.
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