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Post by siuyiu on Jun 23, 2015 21:16:52 GMT
i thought our non-Chinese-speaking friends might be interested in having the language explained a little bit, so that titles and names aren't so confusing. (to the Chinese-speaking friends: yes, i realize the irony of a non-native taking on this topic. apologies for any and all mistakes! please do correct me!) so, Chinese writing is like the ancient Egyptian one: hieroglyphic/pictograms. each character represents a word; very often, a pair of characters can also represent a word/concept. each character is also monosyllabic. chinese characters are divided into two major parts: (1) radical (部首 "bushou") - this groups characters into categories related to meaning; consider it the root of the word (2) rebus - this gives the phonetic/inflection part of the word; however, because chinese is not alphabetic and is tonal, this second part is not a simple or accurate guide to how exactly to pronounce the entire word because chinese characters are essentially glyphs, they are put together like a jigsaw puzzle, with each component made up of different strokes. for example, 晚 "wan" (evening/night) has a total of 11 strokes. 4 strokes for its radical 日 (sun, day) and 7 for its rebus. when using a chinese dictionary, you'll find it arranged by radicals and by number of strokes. characters are grouped together by radical. the radicals are arranged in numeric order (total number of strokes per radical). to find a particular character, you need to first look up the radical and then the rebus by its number of strokes (i.e., you don't look up the total strokes for the character but in its two parts: total strokes for radical + total strokes for rebus). so, for "wan", you find it under the 4-strokes radical 日, and then in the 7-strokes section of that radical. more to come. meanwhile, this is a fantastic talk that gives a nice introduction to chinese writing: TEDtalk - Chineasy (their website: Chineasy) and here's a wiki entry that has more detail: Wiki - Written Chineseand for my other posts, here is the TOC by subject: RadicalsBasic Strokes TonalityRebuses as Bad Pronunciation GuidesSome Common (Useful) Characters Common Compound WordsSome Common PhrasesClassifiers Diezi and DieciBasic Grammar Chinese IdiomsCharacters related to FamilyCharts of RelationsSurnames1, Surnames2; Aisin Gioro Surname (by galvatron prime) Unification of Writing (brief visual) (by chefying) Learn Chinese on YoutubeConsequences of Tribal Mentality Tongue TwistersCantonese vs Mandarinand here are some exercises to practise recognizing characters: Exercise 1Exercise 2Exercise 3 Exercise 4
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Post by reinafu on Jun 23, 2015 21:24:23 GMT
Thank you for this nice thread !
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 23, 2015 21:37:06 GMT
ok, a bit more info on radicals.
as i mentioned, these are the "root words" of chinese characters. where it is located within the character will depend on what the character is. majority of characters have their radicals on the left side, but radicals can be found on the right, on top, and at the bottom. let me give some examples:
晚 "wan" (evening/night) the radical 日 (sun, day) is on the left
動 "dong" (move, movement, action) the radical 力 (strength, power) is on the right
安 "an" (peaceful, quiet) the radical 宀 (roof) is on top
思 "si" (think, consider) the radical 心 (heart) is at the bottom
and just to confuse you further, some radicals have alternate/simplified forms when it becomes a part of a character. i will give one example because it is a very common radical and you'll come across it a lot.
艸 = radical 艹 = alternate form this radical forms the basis/category for most plants. for example, 花 "hua" (flower)
so, finally, i'm going to list some common radicals that'll hopefully help you at least categorize a chinese character that you come across, even if you don't know what its exact meaning and pronunciation are. hey, it's a start! (i'll list them in order by number of strokes.) NOTE: some radicals aren't characters/words in and of themselves, and for those, i'm not giving their pinyin 'cause it's complicated.
人 "ren" (alternate form 亻) - person (another common one with alternate form!)
刀 "dao" (alternate form刂) - blade (a common one for wuxia-related things. you'll find the characters for sword, sabre, spear, etc. in this category.)
土 "tu" - soil
女 "nu" - girl, female
子 "zi" - boy, male, son
宀 - roof
山 "shan" - mountain
心 "xin" (alternate form 忄) - heart (words related to emotions often found here.)
手 "shou" (alternate form 扌) - hand
日 "re" - sun, day
月 "yue" - moon, month
木 "mu" - wood
水 "shui" (alternate form 氵) - water
火 "huo" (alternate form 灬) - fire
糸 - silk
艸 (alternate form 艹) - plant, vegetation
虫 "chong" - insect
衣 "yi" (alternate form 衤) - cloth
言 "yan" - word (a lot of words related to speech and conversation are found here.)
走 "zou" - run
辵 (alternate form 辶) - walk, walking
金 "jin" - gold, metal
門 "men" - door, entrance
雨 "yu" (alternate form ⻗) - rain
頁 "ye" - page, sheet
馬 "ma" - horse
魚 "yu" - fish (incidentally, the word 'umami' 鮮 "xian" is found here.)
鳥 "niao" - bird
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 23, 2015 21:37:51 GMT
Thank you for this nice thread ! feel free to ask questions and for clarifications!
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 24, 2015 0:04:13 GMT
like all writing systems, there are some basic rules for writing chinese characters: (1) from top to bottom (2) from left to right there are more rules than that, of course, but let's not get bogged down with too many. (NOTE: you may read chinese from top to bottom and right to left in traditional books, but you write individual characters from left to right. it's some balance thing. ) and a few more details on strokes. these are the basic forms: (1) dot (點 "dian") (2) horizontal (横 "heng") (3) vertical (豎 "shu") (4) rise (提 "ti") (5) press down (捺 "na") (6) throw away (撇 "pie") (7) hook (鉤 "gou") (8) bend (彎 "wan") (9) slant (斜 "xie") (10) break (折 "zhe") - which indicates a change in stroke direction, usually 90° turn, going down or going right only as opposed to a variety of stroke so, you combine these basic strokes together to form chinese characters. credit: wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroke_(CJKV_character)
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 24, 2015 0:14:51 GMT
astute friends will have noticed that in my previous post, the chinese name for the type of stroke seems to differ between my category character and the one in the graphic. i'm using traditional text; some of the graphics uses simplified text. in this post, i'm going to list a few more common characters (a few are also radicals "(r)") that you'll come across a lot (this'll be a work in progress): numbers 1-9 with pinyin: 一"yi"(r) 二"er"(r) 三"san" 四"si" 五"wu" 六"liu" 七"qi" 八"ba"(r) 九"jiu" multiples of 10 with pinyin:
十"shi"(r) 百"bai" - hundred 千"qian" - thousand 萬"wan" - ten thousandand now some other common words--i've grouped them where possible: 春 "chun" - spring 夏 "xia" - summer 秋 "qiu" - autumn 冬 "dong" - winter
東 "dong" - east 南 "nan" - south 西 "xi" - west 北 "bei" - north 上 "shang" - up 下 "xia" - down 中 "zhong" - middle 左 "zhuo" - left 右 "you" - right 前 "qian" - in front, forward; preceding 後 "hou" - behind, rear; after 來 "lai" - come 去 "qu" - go, leave 回 "hui" - return 出 "chu" - go out, come out; emit, issue 入 "ru" - come in, enter; join (r)高 "gao" - high (r) 低 "di" - low 遠 "yuan" - far, distant; remote 近 "jin" - near, close; approach 長 "chang" - long; length; lasting (r) 短 "duan" - short; brief; deficient 大 "da" - big (r) 小 "xiao" - small (r)多 "duo" - many, much, more 少 "shao" - less, few
天 "tian" - sky 地 "di" - earth, ground 時 "shi" - time period, season 年 "nian" - year 生 "sheng" - life; give birth (r) 死 "si" - die; death 老 "lao" - old; venerable; outdated (r) 命 "ming" - one's life; destiny, fate; luck 方 "fang" - side; square (r) 圓 "yuan" - circle, circular, round; complete 紅"hong" - red 黃"huang" - yellow (r) 綠"lu" - green 青 "qing" - "indigo", blue-green (r) 藍"lan" - blue 紫"zi" - purple 黑"hei" - black (r) 白"bai" - white (r) 色 "se" - colour (r) 不 "bu" - not, no 我"wo" - I, me 你 "ni" - you 他 "ta" - he, him (she, her) 好 "hao" - good 姓 "sheng" - surname 名 "ming" - first name 男 "nan" - male (not to be confused with radical 子) 話 "hua" - speech 說 "shuo" - explain, say, refer to 字 "zi" - word, character 學 "xue" - study, learn 河 "he" - river 江 "jiang" - large river 湖 "hu" - lake 海 "hai" - ocean 清 "qing" - clean, clear, pure 是 "shi" - to be (is) 要 "yao" - want, will, shall; need; important, essential 會 "hui" - can, able; meet, meeting; society, union, party 起 "qi" - rise, start 開 "kai" - open 行 "xing" - go; walk (r) (NOTE: the phrase [不行!] means "it won't work"--literally "no go") 做 "zuo" - to do 用 "yong" - use 有 "you" - have 到 "dao" - arrive; go to功 "gong" - merit, achievement, service 國 "guo" - country, state, nation 家 "jia" - home, house, family 為 "wei" - for, for the sake of, in order to; act 和 "he" - together; with, and 經 "jing" - longitude; scripture; constant, regular 書 "shu" - book, document, writings; style of calligraphy 身 "shen" - body (r) 頭 "tou" - head; top; first 面 "mian" - face; surface (r) 眼 "yan" - eye 耳 "er" - ear (r) 血 "xue" - blood (r) 口 "kou" - mouth (r) 叫 "jiao" - to call, to yell 唱 "chang" - sing; call 吃 "chi" - eat; endure, suffer 問 "wen" - ask 同 "tong" - same; with (and therefore [不同] means different/not the same) 明 "ming" - bright 笑 "xiao" - laugh 哭 "ku" - cry 情 "qing" - feeling, sentiment, emotion聲 "sheng" - sound, voice, tone雲 "yun" - cloud 雪 "xue" - snow 酒 "jiu" - wine 茶 "cha" - tea 牛 "niu" - ox, cow (r) 羊 "yang" - sheep, goat (r) 雞 "ji" - chicken 豬 "zhu" - pig 鴨 "ya" - duck 美 "mei" - beautiful (NOTE: often paired with 麗 "li" to mean the same thing) 精 "jing" - essence; spirit 驚 "jing" - frighten, startle; surprise 奇 "qi" - strange; uncanny 錢 "qian" - money, currency, coins 銀 "yin" - silver 龍 "long" - dragon (r) are you starting to recognize the radicals and, therefore, categories some of these words fall into?
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Post by reinafu on Jun 24, 2015 7:19:53 GMT
So, when an emperor is referred to as " Huang Di ", it's means Yellow emperor, if I understand well. And when he is called " Huang Shang ", it's an image to mean that he is at the top of the world... Sometimes, when somebody was far and returns home, instead of just saying "Wo Hui", he (she ) says "Wo Hui Lai" : it's a little bit redondant, isn't it ? When Chu Liu Xiang and Hu Tie Hua drink wine, when they say "He Jiu", they actually say something meaning " let's drink wine together " then, and I guess that it's the same when I hear "He Cha". I never understood the difference between " wo bu min bai " and " wo bu dong " when someone wants to say that he doesn't understand something, do you have an idea ? Once again NICE THREAD, THAANNKKSS !! just a little remark : isn't it possible to add the accents when you write the pinyin trasncription of the characters, please ? If you can't or it asks for too much work, don't worry, I won't " eat " you )
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 24, 2015 8:34:49 GMT
reinafu oh, one thing i haven't explained because it falls under the pronunciation mess is the fact that there are only a limited number of sounds/inflections possible in chinese and, therefore, there are a bunch of words that are homonyms. this is further complicated by the fact that with pinyin, there's no way to indicate the tonality of a particular transliteration without needing a whole other system of numbers/symbols. so, the "huang" of "huang di" is a different character from colour, even though they sound the same. so, emperor "huang di" is 皇帝. to make matters even more confusing, there's a historical ruler called the yellow emperor 黃帝 (and yes, you pronounce it the same as the generic term for emperor--isn't chinese so much fun?!). "huang shang" uses the same first character as emperor: 皇上. and yes, it is an address to the emperor, same as calling a duke "your grace" or the pope "your holiness". "wo hui lai" does seem redundant, but there are a lot of pairs of characters (compound terms) made up of words with similar meanings that are used for one concept/idea. it's sort of like how, a lot of the times in english, you use two similar words (often synonyms) as a stylistic choice. i wish i had the brainpower to give a well-known example. and yes, indeed "he jiu" and "he cha" is the same sentiment, just different beverage of choice. "wo bu ming bai" and "wo bu dong" mean the same thing, just a variation of saying it. i think "ming bai" is a bit more formal than "dong". sort of like the difference between using "tu" and "vous" when you're addressing a person your age vs an older person; that sort of thing. as a non-mandarin speaker, i have a lot of difficulty with pinyin, so to add accents WOULD be a tough one, especially when i don't know the dialect well enough to be able to trust the sites that offer a pronunciation key. if it's ok with you, can i NOT include pronunciation marks? i'm sure there are reliable sites that you can use to look up pronunciation--do any of the mandarin speakers on the board know a reliable online dictionary?
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 24, 2015 9:02:19 GMT
reinafu aha! i should've just googled! examples of common redundancies we've come to accept in english include "tuna fish", "null and void", and "each and every". and besides, "hui" and "lai" don't mean the exact same thing, so using them in conjunction isn't that silly.
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Post by siuyiu on Jun 24, 2015 9:13:37 GMT
reinafu and now the challenge is for you to look at the chinese titles of the wuxia novels and see if you can figure out why some have those english titles. it'd certainly explain why alternate titles exist, like you noticed with the french titles.
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Post by reinafu on Jun 24, 2015 9:50:21 GMT
Thanks for the informations. Yes, I know that there are 5 different tones in Mandarin, so that the same word can mean different things, and yes, it's ok if you can't add the tones ; I myself don't know how to type them with my keyboard... And I think that I made a mistake regarding "dong" and "min bai" ; it's not "ming bai" but "min bai", from what I remember to have heard in the dialogues... And I'm curious to know why the word "shang" you mentioned above as "up" is used when some people order an attack ; isn't there a word for " attack " ? I understand that "shang" is used when referring to the emperor because he has a high position, but I don't see the interest in using the term "up" for launching an attack or a killing... I hope that I don't bother you too much with my questions, but now that you opened this thread, since I'm eager for learning all kind of languages, you'll have more questions than you thought from me !!! ) Maybe I already mentioned it in other posts, but when I was 16, I had the luck to begin to learn Mandarin ; unfortunately, our teacher was married to a Chinese dissident, and after 4 or 5 months, we never heard of her again (I think that maybe they have to fly away due to politics...), so, all that I know is what I remember from her teaching years ago. Then, I discovered the Shaw Brothers' movies, first with French subtitles and later with English subtitles and it helped me to better understand Mandarin. And now that I'm used to watch series/movies with only Chinese subtitles or no subtitles at all, the more I watch, the more I'm able to understand a few sentences, but it's still difficult to understand the whole plots, of course... I have a few books to learn by myself, but I don't have enought with 24h per day to do all what I want... So, this thread is almost like a Christmas gift !!!
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Post by reinafu on Jun 24, 2015 9:51:58 GMT
Also, what is the difference between "dao" (for blade) and "jian" (for sword, if im' not mistaken) ?
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Post by reinafu on Jun 24, 2015 12:24:22 GMT
Am I mistaken if I guess that the Chu Liu Xiang's title " hua mei niao " litteraly means " beautiful sister bird " ?
And it seems to me that the character "kai" for " open " has the character for " door " in it, right ?
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Post by chefying on Jun 24, 2015 16:56:56 GMT
Also, what is the difference between "dao" (for blade) and "jian" (for sword, if im' not mistaken) ? Dao 刀 has only one sharpened side. Jian 剑 has two sharpened sides - double edged blade, if you will. Bi Shou 匕首 is a dagger, and usually has two sharpened sides/edges. It is much shorter than a Jian. Hope this helps.
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Post by reinafu on Jun 24, 2015 17:58:49 GMT
Thank you very much for the precision.
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