|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 26, 2015 1:12:09 GMT
these are just some thoughts put down quickly to paper--not so much a research paper as an english finals essay. apologies if things aren't clear. i'm hoping this will be a discussion and not some weird lecture/meta, so apologies if i seem defensive (or worse, condescending) as i try to make my points.  i've been mulling over @caiyi's comments in the lyrics thread about whether a particular set of lyrics properly capture the storyline and themes of the adaptation, and that led to some random ruminations on the dilemmas that wuxia heroes (xia) face and must try to resolve. i know the tradition is to have them be good and upright and have a strong sense of justice, but gotta admit that the most memorable characters are those that, in the shakespearean tradition, have (fatal) flaws, i.e., they are not perfect. yes, there are heroic deeds and society is largely the better for the xia's help. but the most interesting and talked about stories are also those that deal with the internal struggles and divided loyalties that the xia faces--whether it's familial obligations and falling in love with "the enemy's" daughter, moral crises, the sociopolitical climes, etc. and the xia doesn't always come out the winner in these struggles. to go back to the topic of lyrics for a moment, i think these two lines pretty much sum up my point: 任你一生英雄真好漢 no matter a lifetime of heroism 亦難衝開心裡困 one can't thrust aside the internal struggles (from 舊侶難忘 Unforgettable Companion of Old, by 黃沾 james wong) so, the xia (and i'm now restricting the focus to the ones with fatal flaws and internal struggles) has a weakness or a moral dilemma that causes unending difficulties and, often, divided loyalties. and he's got to make a decision, often choose between two evils and figure out which is the lesser. he's got to weigh the pros and cons of a situation. some can see the bigger picture and "do what's right" for the greater good. others get fixated on the details. either way, there are personal costs, sometimes huge ones (like death). but here's the thing: this is what makes them great and memorable... and relate-able. readers are drawn to these complex, often conflicted characters because they seem more real, more human. it's the whole superman vs batman debate. the dark knight has always been more compelling. the brooding, mysterious, byronic character. yes, yes, superman has the bit about being an outsider, but he's morally unambiguous and saves the planet and everyone loves him. so, let's use some examples to illustrate the types of moral dilemmas and divided loyalties i mean. jin yong (JY)'s heroes fall on a spectrum of prototypes, from the more supermanic (guo jing and xiao feng) to the more batmanish (yang guo and zhang wuji/yuan chengzhi). the supermanic GJ and XF are morally secure, doing the right thing, being heroic, and their dilemmas are more external. XF, especially, has to choose which side he's on in the border wars, and he has a tougher time than GJ about it. and ultimately, he loses his life to keep the peace. that's self-sacrifice at the highest level. he's the ultimate tragic hero. and in this way, he is more akin to ZWJ, YCZ, and linghu chong (LHC) in that they all lose and must retreat; they can't be a part of the wuxia world because they are not able to deal with the intricacies, the politics, the not-black-and-whiteness. i know YG is generally written off and scoffed at because the focus of readers tends to be his love for xiaolongnu (XLN) and the sixteen-year separation they suffer. but let's not forget that, of all the JY characters, he goes the farthest in the exploration of morality. he actually crosses over and joins the enemy. he "turns evil" for all intents and purposes. but in the end, he discovers that he's "still on the side of the angels". so, the whole myth of shen diao xia was born out of his self-reflection and contemplations. he will continue to flout convention and social restrictions, and he'll be openly contemptuous of the status quo, but whatever he chooses to do doesn't cause harm to society. discussing YG naturally brings up the topic of manly vs femininity and what defines the proper "xia" behaviour. because YG is considered "emotional", that makes him less manly than GJ. but does being manly mean that you have to be cold, unfeeling, aloof, "logical"? XF is about as "manly" as you get, and he went on a rampage and murdered a bunch of people at a gathering. is this not an "emotional" response to a situation? upright ZWJ did the proper thing, brought justice and order among the factions, diffused situations, is a hero by all accounts. but he's constantly being manipulated by the women in his life, and too often he allows his feelings to cloud his judgement of a situation. how is this "manly"? and i suppose, with regards to the whole manly issue, gu long (GL)'s heroes must be the biggest group of pansies out there. they are the ultimate in tragic heroism, overindulging all hamlet-like in their misery. i mean, li xuanhuan (LXH) may have done the heroic thing giving away his fortune and his fiancee to his saviour, but instead of going off and performing deeds in the liang shan (water margin)/robin hood fashion, he becomes a drunkard and spends his days wallowing in self-pity. and yet, he is revered as being this great hero. moving on... so, even in GL's world, the xia personalities range from supermanish to extremely batmanic. ye kai, chu liuxiang, lu xiaofeng fall into the former; LXH, fu hongxue, xie xiaofeng are definitely the latter. and like the superman xias in the JY world, YK, CLX, LXF have external pressures that they contend with. but because GL is the master of melancholy, he is at his best writing the tortured batmanics. the aforementioned drunkard LXH, the deceived FHX, the suicidal XXF have inner demons as well as external issues. and then there are the ambitious villains, lu xiangchuan & zuo donglai, who finally must die because, well, this is still wuxia and the good guys have to win. but man, their counterparts are dull as pigsh**. huang ying (HY)'s yun feiyang deserves a mention because he's another tragic hero. has all the right qualities to be a good xia, but luck is not with him. man vs environment and all that. incidentally, the lyrics i quoted earlier are for an adaptation of one of HY's stories, shen shengyi. finally, on the whole topic of what xia is and how not black-and-white the wuxia world can be--outside the obviously fantastic aspects and tropes--the author who really explores this is wen rui'an (WRA). he started contemplating this with xia shao and even though i have yet to read them, he's devoted an entire series to exploring the question (Speaking of Heroes, Who is a Hero Series 說英雄，誰是英雄系列) and he's got several short stories looking at the shades of grey and the not-so-obviously xia types that nonetheless get thrust into the role. like GL, WRA also went through a period of transformation in terms of writing style, and his later works are definitely more philosophical and less traditional-wuxia format. that's all i got to say. thoughts? |
|
|
|
Post by caiyi on Oct 26, 2015 6:53:07 GMT
it's the whole superman vs batman debate. the dark knight has always been more compelling. the brooding, mysterious, byronic character. yes, yes, superman has the bit about being an outsider, but he's morally unambiguous and saves the planet and everyone loves him. I don't know about the dark knight enough to make a comparison with Supes. So, I use another example. The Avengers equivalent. Batman = Iron Man, Superman = Captain America. I find Captain America more compelling than Iron Man. What I like about Caps is precisely his moral unambiguity. I like his wholesome character, his kindness and his honor. Amid all the superheroes who has issues, his wholesome goodness is like a breath of fresh air. Cap didn't face less problem than the others, but, he can still stick to his moral. I find that admirable. This made him compelling to me. |
|
|
|
Post by caiyi on Oct 26, 2015 7:05:23 GMT
discussing YG naturally brings up the topic of manly vs femininity and what defines the proper "xia" behaviour. because YG is considered "emotional", that makes him less manly than GJ. but does being manly mean that you have to be cold, unfeeling, aloof, "logical"? XF is about as "manly" as you get, and he went on a rampage and murdered a bunch of people at a gathering. is this not an "emotional" response to a situation? I guess it depends on how the man display his emotion. Going on a rampage and KOed a bunch of people in a 1 against many situation can be viewed as a manly kind of emo, so, that makes Xiao Feng manly. |
|
|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 26, 2015 7:10:30 GMT
it's the whole superman vs batman debate. the dark knight has always been more compelling. the brooding, mysterious, byronic character. yes, yes, superman has the bit about being an outsider, but he's morally unambiguous and saves the planet and everyone loves him. I don't know about the dark knight enough to make a comparison with Supes. So, I use another example. The Avengers equivalent. Batman = Iron Man, Superman = Captain America. I find Captain America more compelling than Iron Man. What I like about Caps is preciously his moral unambiguity. I like his wholesome character, his kindness and his honor. Amid all the superheroes who has issues, his wholesome goodness is like a breath of fresh air. Cap didn't face less problem than the others, but, he can still stick to his moral. I find that admirable. This made him compelling to me. and traditionally, xia was supposed to be more captain america than iron man (although loki is a better counterpart to batman, imo--at least, the movie versions; i don't know the comics well enough to compare). hence why a lot of people like the ideal of that morally unambiguous character. GJ and XF and ZWJ; ZDF; YK... the list goes on and on. but with the advent of morally ambiguous characters like YG and especially those written by GL (and there was also a shift in movies from the classical hero to the anti-hero/everyman), there was an interest and curiosity about these less perfect characters. i guess i've been pondering on that change. and i definitely don't speak for the wuxia-reading/watching population nor am i trying to generalize. there are plenty who love the ideal xia. they are good models that inspire respect and ambition to imitate. |
|
|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 26, 2015 7:19:51 GMT
discussing YG naturally brings up the topic of manly vs femininity and what defines the proper "xia" behaviour. because YG is considered "emotional", that makes him less manly than GJ. but does being manly mean that you have to be cold, unfeeling, aloof, "logical"? XF is about as "manly" as you get, and he went on a rampage and murdered a bunch of people at a gathering. is this not an "emotional" response to a situation? I guess it depends on how the man display his emotion. Going on a rampage and KOed a bunch of people in a 1 against many situation can be viewed as a manly kind of emo, so, that makes Xiao Feng manly. i think my bit of beef is with the hypocrisy of labelling one character as "emotional" in the negative sense and another's reactions as justifiable, even though the same emotions of anger and betrayal were involved. when both characters were dealing with the love of their life suffering a life-threatening injury, they both lashed out, but XF's manliness isn't questioned whereas YG is dismissed as being unmanly in his preoccupation with love and "feelings". i'm not trying to make this a YG vs XF thing. i just want to point out that YG tends to be judged more harshly than XF for the same types of reactions to difficult situations. and i think i'm westernized enough in upbringing to really, really disapprove of the emotional repression that is taught by traditional (especially chinese) societies. the whole "men don't cry" thing is bollocks. |
|
|
|
Post by galvatron prime on Oct 26, 2015 7:25:57 GMT
siuyiuWhat about Wei Xiaobao ? Any Xia on him ? Is he less Xia because his kungfu was the weakest among all JY hero? Is he appear to be least racist among all the JY hero? In Dicky Cheung DOMD 2000,he advise Princess Changping not to kill Kangxi Emperor ,he said that both Han and Manchu are yellow race,only different that the Manchu come from other side of Great Wall ,,Kangxi rule is much better than your father rule during Ming dynasty ,do you want China Colonize By Russia which are white race? At the end Chiangping throw her sword and run aways from in Great Wall. What do you think ?
|
|
|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 26, 2015 8:15:32 GMT
@galvatron according to JY, WXB was deliberately written as an anti-hero, as a character that has none of the traditional xia characteristics. he is not supposed to be admired. nonetheless, he's an interesting case study. so, no, he isn't less of a xia because his martial arts is the weakest; he was deliberately created to be the antithesis of all the honourable, good qualities associated with a xia. and he's an anti-hero not a villain (because villains consider themselves heroes).
what advantages would WXB gain by telling the hans and manchus to make peace? THAT is the driving principle of all his actions--how can he gain power and money. now, most adaptations of DOMD try to tone down the sleaziness of WXB, try to make him likeable, try to justify his actions as being less horrible. so, it's possible that the scene in DOMD2000 was made up (or, at the very least, was twisted around to make it seem like WXB was trying to do the right thing). i'm not familiar enough with the books to comment on the authenticity of that scene.
i do know that, of the adaptations that i've seen (haven't seen them all), the portrayal that is the least like the book WXB is HXM's version, DOMD2008.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lone Crane on Oct 26, 2015 9:33:31 GMT
The xia has actually always been a morally ambiguous character, kind of like how vigilantes are seen today. They may do some good, but they ignore the law to do it, and if everyone did that then we would have chaos, so they are disruptive elements. And the line between a xia and say, a bandit, can be rather thin (see Water Margin). The characteristics of a xia are basically that he his altruistic, meaning putting others before himself, helping others. If you see injustice you act to redress that wrong. The xia disdains wealth and fame, and he always keeps his word. But exactly what the xia considers just is unique to that individual, these are values he sets for himself. They value those who appreciate them (知己) and would give their life for such a person. Which is why taking revenge on behalf of one's benefactor is so common. The first known historical use of the word xia is negative, and occurs in Han Feizi, where he says: 「儒以文亂法，俠以武犯禁，而人主兼禮之，此所以亂也。」(The scholars/Confucians bring confusion to the law with their writing/learning, and the xia violate the prohibitions with their use of force. But the ruler is courteous to them both, so there is disorder.) Check out The Early Xia Tradition for a great overview of the historical xia (the best discussion of the xia in English): tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/10902 Just click on the link under "Files" to download the pdf. I'm also not sure where you're getting this concept that emotional = less manly in traditional Chinese culture. This is a modern construct, sure, but in traditional Chinese literature there are many depictions of men weeping or showing emotion and it is not deemed feminine or negative in any way. A lot of poetry has this, the poet weeping when sending off a friend. Song Jiang does that in Water Margin as well, and Liu Bei cries all the time in ROTK. It is true though that the xia has been traditionally depicted as being aloof to romance, such as in the story "Zhao Taizu Esocrts Jingniang a Thousand Li" ( open-lit.com/listbook.php?cid=21&gbid=100&bid=3940&start=0). In this story, Zhao Kuangyin (who would become the first Song emperor) as a young man escorts a girl back to her home, Jingniang, who has been kidnapped by bandits. When they're almost there Jingniang, who is so grateful for Kuangyin's help, offers to be his wife. But he refuses because they already paid respects to each other as brother/sister, and they have the same surname, and also because that was never his intention. When they get home the family of Jingniang presses him to marry her as well (because they assume the two have had sex already, since they traveled that far alone). Kuangyin gets mad that they would suspect him of wanting that, and flies into a rage and leaves. The family still thinks something went on between the two, which shames Jingniang, who hangs herself to prove her purity. Kuangyin, after becoming emperor, sends someone to ask about Jingniang. When he learns what happened, he sighs and has a temple built in her honor. Also, Song jiang in Water Margin is too busy with dealing with his friends and has no time for his new wife, Yan Poxi. He even ends up killing her. Nie Yinniang, in the classic Tang dynasty story, picks a mirror polisher for her husband but there is no romance depicted between them. Later she leaves him to go off on her own. There are other Tang dynasty stories which share the plot of a woman getting together with a man and taking care of him. Then giving him a child. Then one day she returns home at night with a decapitated head in a bag, saying she finally got her revenge and now she must leave. Before she leaves she kills the child to sever all past familial connections, and then leaves. So this aloofness to romance is common among xia, and certainly one can question their morals (such as killing your own child!). So this idea that the xia is some morally pure clean white character is not accurate. Xia have never been depicted that way. Xia (俠) =/= hero (英雄). And either way, who is a hero and who is not is a matter of perspective. Yang Guo, therefore, could be criticized (from a xia perspective) for devoting so much of his life to personal romance. The wuxia author who pioneered the look into the gray areas of morality was Wolong Sheng (臥龍生), who began doing so with his early novels 《飛燕驚龍》、《玉釵盟》、《天香飆》 and 《絳雪玄霜》. These novels look at the wulin martial arts schools deceiving and backstabbing each other over a martial arts manual, or supposed "good guys" (白道) actually acting worse than the "bad guys" (黑道). 《天香飆》(Beautiful Whirlwind) is a good example of this. In 《天香飆》, 1961, you have two main characters: Hu Boling, who is a former bad guy killer, now reformed, and his wife, Gu Hanxiang, a very beautiful woman who knows no martial arts and is in general pretty naive. She has turned him from evil onto the path of good, and Hu Boling joins a competition to determine the chief of the Greenwood (綠林), which in this novel is the bad guy equivalent to the wulin, which are the "good guys". He wins the competition to become the head of the Greenwood and then demands its members to stop doing bad things and to start doing good. The problem is the wulin people don't believe Hu Boling has really turned from his evil ways; they think it is a trick of some kind. Some stuff happens, and eventually there is a big fight between the Greenwood and the wulin. Hu Boling tries to stop the fight, but in the process of reaching for an explosive to disable it, the wulin people think he is attacking, and so attack him back. The senior member of Wudang kills Hu Boling, along with another I can remember the name of. All over a misunderstanding. Gu Hanxiang sees this herself. She is distraught of course, and decides she will get revenge because she is so devoted to Hu Boling. She feels she has already died when he did, so there is nothing she won't do to accomplish her aim. Eventually, because of a conversation with another character, she realizes how much her beauty influences people, something she never was aware of before. So she begins to use her beauty as a weapon to manipulate people to do what she wants. She becomes the new chief of the Greenwood, and later goes off to learn martial arts from this crippled freak who falls in love with her. She becomes his wife and learns his wugong, then kills him and re-enters the jianghu under the name Red Flower Princess to get her revenge. Shen then methodically goes after people, using her beauty and drugs to control people. Finally she learns some even better wugong from this really old reclusive immortal-type person, who then dies, telling her she can only kill four more people. There is a big battle again between the Greenwood and the wulin in the end she kills the Wudang priest but as she is doing this she is attacked by another and stabbed (that person is immediately killed by one of Gu Hanxiang's cohorts, sliced completely in half if I remember correctly). Gu Hanxiang's wugong is probably the most powerful of any character in wuxia at this point. It's debatable anyway, since she killed Wudang's top master with a single palm strike. Anyway now she is mortally wounded herself, but she has had her revenge and so she says a few words and then kills herself with a sword to end it and join Hu Boling. The novel is brilliant in its foreshadowing Gu Hanxiang's later transformation. Thematically it is about the evil turning to good, and the good turning to evil. In this novel Shaolin and Wudang are the main "bad guys", though actually no one is really bad, they're just hypocrites. One of the Daoist priests sees his disciple killed and demands the killer's life as payment, saying that a debt is paid with money, a life is paid with a life. Later, he kills someone on accident and one of Gu Hanxiang's followers repeats his own words back to him. But this priest tries to say it's somehow different, showing his hypocrisy. Anyway, the novel is a good example of the ambiguity between right and wrong. Gu Hanxiang does a lot of questionable stuff herself to reach her goal, though I consider her more of a xia than Guo Jing, for example, because she at least has her principles and sticks to them. Guo Jing, on the other hand, has no real positions of his own and just does what he is told, and in the end betrays the people who saved his life, and his mother's, and who raised him as their own. Certainly not xia behavior, and I don't know how anyone can call it heroic either. He sides with the Song simply because he was born there, all the while betraying those who saved his life and took him in as one of their own. It's not only unheroic, it's despicable behavior. It's just blind nationalism that calls him a "hero". |
|
|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 26, 2015 17:40:48 GMT
The xia has actually always been a morally ambiguous character, kind of like how vigilantes are seen today. They may do some good, but they ignore the law to do it, and if everyone did that then we would have chaos, so they are disruptive elements. And the line between a xia and say, a bandit, can be rather thin (see Water Margin). The characteristics of a xia are basically that he his altruistic, meaning putting others before himself, helping others. If you see injustice you act to redress that wrong. The xia disdains wealth and fame, and he always keeps his word. But exactly what the xia considers just is unique to that individual, these are values he sets for himself. They value those who appreciate them (知己) and would give their life for such a person. Which is why taking revenge on behalf of one's benefactor is so common. The first known historical use of the word xia is negative, and occurs in Han Feizi, where he says: 「儒以文亂法，俠以武犯禁，而人主兼禮之，此所以亂也。」(The scholars/Confucians bring confusion to the law with their writing/learning, and the xia violate the prohibitions with their use of force. But the ruler is courteous to them both, so there is disorder.) So this idea that the xia is some morally pure clean white character is not accurate. Xia have never been depicted that way. Xia (俠) =/= hero (英雄). And either way, who is a hero and who is not is a matter of perspective. Yang Guo, therefore, could be criticized (from a xia perspective) for devoting so much of his life to personal romance. The wuxia author who pioneered the look into the gray areas of morality was Wolong Sheng (臥龍生), who began doing so with his early novels 《飛燕驚龍》、《玉釵盟》、《天香飆》 and 《絳雪玄霜》. These novels look at the wulin martial arts schools deceiving and backstabbing each other over a martial arts manual, or supposed "good guys" (白道) actually acting worse than the "bad guys" (黑道). 《天香飆》(Beautiful Whirlwind) is a good example of this. thanks for all this, Lone Crane! wrt han feizi, well, he was a civil servant, so have to take his POV with a grain of salt.  not saying he's wrong--xia are seen as social outcasts and do live outside the law, creating a law/code for themselves. the whole robin hood thing. but given that xia are the central characters in their own stories, it becomes the issue of even villains seeing themselves as heroes of their own story (certainly their own viewpoint). i think the idea that the xia is morally pure is definitely a modern construct. it's the way to justify many of their actions, esp. wrt vengeance plots. under the law, these are murders. writers of wuxia have a responsibility to the public: you can't seem to justify criminal acts. and you certainly don't want to be considered anti-government. so, the obvious way to be a good citizen and have your protagonist be a hero rather than a villain is to make him morally pure. whether this is the right thing to do... well, not everyone likes reading wuxia, so presumably those who don't object to it for precisely HFZ's reasons. well, thank you WLS for pioneering the shades of grey of wuxia!  and, in a sense, bringing back the concept of the xia as a morally ambiguous character. haha, there's gonna be uproar when people find out YG is more xia than GJ.  from comments i've read over the years on the various wuxia-related forums. and opinions of people IRL i've encountered. and portrayals of "manly" xia in the many adaptations over the years. and when i say "traditional chinese culture", i mean what is considered traditional in our age rather than historically. i didn't grow up in a "traditional" chinese family, but i've seen enough of what are deemed "traditional" ones to form opinions about it. so, historically, were good confucian scholars allowed to show emotion? yes, thanks for pointing out that romance is a modern concept! for the chinese, marriage was about alliances and not romance. good point re: GJ. but this has always been a huge blindspot in wuxia fiction, hasn't it? the us vs them. culturally, "us" is almost always han. socially, "them" is usually the government, the civil service, all the corrupt people in power and their supporters. so, is it fair to say that you like XF better than GJ? both faced the same dilemma of having to choose a side. |
|
|
|
Post by galvatron prime on Oct 27, 2015 2:50:33 GMT
The xia has actually always been a morally ambiguous character, kind of like how vigilantes are seen today. They may do some good, but they ignore the law to do it, and if everyone did that then we would have chaos, so they are disruptive elements. And the line between a xia and say, a bandit, can be rather thin (see Water Margin). The characteristics of a xia are basically that he his altruistic, meaning putting others before himself, helping others. If you see injustice you act to redress that wrong. The xia disdains wealth and fame, and he always keeps his word. But exactly what the xia considers just is unique to that individual, these are values he sets for himself. They value those who appreciate them (知己) and would give their life for such a person. Which is why taking revenge on behalf of one's benefactor is so common. The first known historical use of the word xia is negative, and occurs in Han Feizi, where he says: 「儒以文亂法，俠以武犯禁，而人主兼禮之，此所以亂也。」(The scholars/Confucians bring confusion to the law with their writing/learning, and the xia violate the prohibitions with their use of force. But the ruler is courteous to them both, so there is disorder.) So this idea that the xia is some morally pure clean white character is not accurate. Xia have never been depicted that way. Xia (俠) =/= hero (英雄). And either way, who is a hero and who is not is a matter of perspective. Yang Guo, therefore, could be criticized (from a xia perspective) for devoting so much of his life to personal romance. The wuxia author who pioneered the look into the gray areas of morality was Wolong Sheng (臥龍生), who began doing so with his early novels 《飛燕驚龍》、《玉釵盟》、《天香飆》 and 《絳雪玄霜》. These novels look at the wulin martial arts schools deceiving and backstabbing each other over a martial arts manual, or supposed "good guys" (白道) actually acting worse than the "bad guys" (黑道). 《天香飆》(Beautiful Whirlwind) is a good example of this. thanks for all this, Lone Crane! wrt han feizi, well, he was a civil servant, so have to take his POV with a grain of salt. not saying he's wrong--xia are seen as social outcasts and do live outside the law, creating a law/code for themselves. the whole robin hood thing. but given that xia are the central characters in their own stories, it becomes the issue of even villains seeing themselves as heroes of their own story (certainly their own viewpoint). i think the idea that the xia is morally pure is definitely a modern construct. it's the way to justify many of their actions, esp. wrt vengeance plots. under the law, these are murders. writers of wuxia have a responsibility to the public: you can't seem to justify criminal acts. and you certainly don't want to be considered anti-government. so, the obvious way to be a good citizen and have your protagonist be a hero rather than a villain is to make him morally pure. whether this is the right thing to do... well, not everyone likes reading wuxia, so presumably those who don't object to it for precisely HFZ's reasons. well, thank you WLS for pioneering the shades of grey of wuxia! and, in a sense, bringing back the concept of the xia as a morally ambiguous character. haha, there's gonna be uproar when people find out YG is more xia than GJ. from comments i've read over the years on the various wuxia-related forums. and opinions of people IRL i've encountered. and portrayals of "manly" xia in the many adaptations over the years. and when i say "traditional chinese culture", i mean what is considered traditional in our age rather than historically. i didn't grow up in a "traditional" chinese family, but i've seen enough of what are deemed "traditional" ones to form opinions about it. so, historically, were good confucian scholars allowed to show emotion? yes, thanks for pointing out that romance is a modern concept! for the chinese, marriage was about alliances and not romance. good point re: GJ. but this has always been a huge blindspot in wuxia fiction, hasn't it? the us vs them. culturally, "us" is almost always han. socially, "them" is usually the government, the civil service, all the corrupt people in power and their supporters. so, is it fair to say that you like XF better than GJ? both faced the same dilemma of having to choose a side. siuyiuIs Guo Jing born in Mongolia or in Song Dynasty ? In TVB Felix Wong version LOCH 1983 and Julian Cheung 1994 he was born in Mongolia Tent ,what about in the novel?  So are the novel mention him born in Song dynasty ? Well the DOMD 2000 was made up . I think The serial was made around during Taiwan election 2000 when the time China want to attack Taiwan if Taiwan under Chen Siu Bian declare independent from China ,same time as Young And Dangerous 6 which Sandra Ng also ask a question will China attack Taiwan. Maybe it try to sent a massage that both China and Taiwan are same race ,why fight. During Kangxi time in History ,the Russian empires already reach Amur river and try to conquer China i think. |
|
|
|
Post by Lone Crane on Oct 27, 2015 3:51:54 GMT
You're right, galvatron prime, I looked it up. He was born in Mongolia. I had remembered it wrong, thinking his mom carried him there, but she escaped there and settled down and he was born there. Giving even less reason for Guo Jing to turn his back on the Mongolians.
|
|
|
|
Post by caiyi on Oct 27, 2015 6:18:52 GMT
Guo Jing, on the other hand, has no real positions of his own and just does what he is told, and in the end betrays the people who saved his life, and his mother's, and who raised him as their own. Certainly not xia behavior, and I don't know how anyone can call it heroic either. He sides with the Song simply because he was born there, all the while betraying those who saved his life and took him in as one of their own. It's not only unheroic, it's despicable behavior. It's just blind nationalism that calls him a "hero". Can it be that GJ was just helping the weak side? The Mongols was, after all, the invaders. So, the Song and Han people were the victim. The act of helping the weak is also heroic. |
|
|
|
Post by Lone Crane on Oct 27, 2015 8:56:50 GMT
Can it be that GJ was just helping the weak side? The Mongols was, after all, the invaders. So, the Song and Han people were the victim. The act of helping the weak is also heroic. It's not heroic if you're betraying the people who saved your life and took you in as family to do it. Imagine it's you who takes someone in, raises them, treats them like family, then they go and fight for the other side because that side needs more help. Would you feel that's heroic or would you feel betrayed? Guo Jing owed the Mongols his life, as they were his benefactor. it's his duty now to 報恩, to repay his debt of gratitude. Instead he turns traitor. It's a case of 忘恩負義, forgetting [past]kindness and turning one's back on justice/righteousness. In other words, ungrateful. The xia code is that when someone does you a kindness you repay it. Guo Jing did the opposite. |
|
|
|
Post by siuyiu on Oct 27, 2015 14:35:45 GMT
Can it be that GJ was just helping the weak side? The Mongols was, after all, the invaders. So, the Song and Han people were the victim. The act of helping the weak is also heroic. It's not heroic if you're betraying the people who saved your life and took you in as family to do it. Imagine it's you who takes someone in, raises them, treats them like family, then they go and fight for the other side because that side needs more help. Would you feel that's heroic or would you feel betrayed? Guo Jing owed the Mongols his life, as they were his benefactor. it's his duty now to 報恩, to repay his debt of gratitude. Instead he turns traitor. It's a case of 忘恩負義, forgetting [past]kindness and turning one's back on justice/righteousness. In other words, ungrateful. The xia code is that when someone does you a kindness you repay it. Guo Jing did the opposite. so... was SDYXZ written as a criticism of blind nationalism or did JY suffer from the same bias as GJ? |
|
|
|
Post by caiyi on Oct 28, 2015 1:03:02 GMT
It's not heroic if you're betraying the people who saved your life and took you in as family to do it. Imagine it's you who takes someone in, raises them, treats them like family, then they go and fight for the other side because that side needs more help. Would you feel that's heroic or would you feel betrayed? Guo Jing owed the Mongols his life, as they were his benefactor. it's his duty now to 報恩, to repay his debt of gratitude. Instead he turns traitor. It's a case of 忘恩負義, forgetting [past]kindness and turning one's back on justice/righteousness. In other words, ungrateful. The xia code is that when someone does you a kindness you repay it. Guo Jing did the opposite. so... was SDYXZ written as a criticism of blind nationalism or did JY suffer from the same bias as GJ? , I think JY has the same bias during the time he wrote LOCH. You can see his viewer slowly changed in his later novels. This discussion makes me think of Zhang Dan Feng. He grew up in Mongolia but he would rather die in the Han land and die as a Chinese. What gives? All the years he stayed in Mongolia (he most probably was born there as well), he developed no love for the country and the land there? No friends? He was the son of a minister of high position in Mongolia, so, he would not be treated badly. (Note: I have not finish the book, so, I don't know if ZDF would explain the reason later) |
|
not saying he's wrong--xia are seen as social outcasts and do live outside the law, creating a law/code for themselves. the whole robin hood thing. but given that xia are the central characters in their own stories, it becomes the issue of even villains seeing themselves as heroes of their own story (certainly their own viewpoint). 
and, in a sense, bringing back the concept of the xia as a morally ambiguous character. haha, there's gonna be uproar when people find out YG is more xia than GJ. 
