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Post by atumiwa on Jul 22, 2020 6:40:40 GMT
once i asked my online friend , if in Jin Yong's world the strongest character should be Dugu Qiubai and Sweeper Monk, what about LYS'? he gave me his heroes ranking version; 1. Zhang Danfeng - Pinzong Xiaying Lu 2. Jin Shiyi - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 3. Qiao Beiming - Lianjian Fengyun Lu 4. Yue Mingke - Baifa Monu Zhuan 5. Meng Sintong - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 6. Lu Suniang - Jianghu San Nuxia 7. Lian Nichang - Baifa Monu Zhuan 8. Ling Meifeng - Qijian Xia Tianshan 9. Tong Xiaolan - Jianghu San Nuxia 10. Li Shengnan - Yunhai Yugong Yuan of course it's just for fun. but what is your opinion?
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Post by kyc on Jul 22, 2020 16:00:07 GMT
I am skimming through a few pages of The Three Heroines(江湖三女俠) right now out of boredom and there are so many characters I'm a little lost. Knowing who the four protagonists really are I am only interested in reading about them but yikes! The first few chapters only involves Tang Xiao Lan, and the story starts and he is already a 17-18 year old man. That actually makes his romance with Feng Ying a little creepy now that I think about it closely. I am curious what's going to happen to Yang LiuQing in the end but I think I can guess. In my opinion the Three Heroines is one of LYS's lesser novels. It has so many characters and is quite chaotic. Almost like LYS on autopilot.
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Post by kyc on Jul 22, 2020 16:06:14 GMT
I am skimming through a few pages of The Three Heroines(江湖三女俠) right now out of boredom and there are so many characters I'm a little lost. Knowing who the four protagonists really are I am only interested in reading about them but yikes! The first few chapters only involves Tang Xiao Lan, and the story starts and he is already a 17-18 year old man. That actually makes his romance with Feng Ying a little creepy now that I think about it closely. I am curious what's going to happen to Yang LiuQing in the end but I think I can guess. I read The Three Heroines many years ago, and although it's interesting, but I don't really like it. Actually I had planned to read it again, but then I realized that LYS made Tang Xiaolan as a bastard son of Kangxi. Also, in other LYS's book, Kangxi was depicted as an evil ruler who even wanted to kill his father - the Shunzi Emperor who became a monk in Wutai Mountain. I don't think I could bear to read it. Historical Kangxi was a benevolent ruler. I read so many books about him, including his own valedictory, and also the personal letters he sent to his trusted eunuch and officials. Therefore, I feel like LYS although he's good, but to a certain degree, his not very faithful when it comes to historical background. For comparison, I have to compare Kangxi's depiction by JY is far better than LYS' comparison. I don't know whether Kangxi was benevolent or not. I don't believe most Chinese emperors were, but Kangxi at least was a very capable ruler. JY does portray him as an ideal ruler in his last novel. LYS's historical background was very much affected by his teacher during his teens. Agree that Kangxi was not so evil in real life, he could be uncommonly faithful to his subordinates (for example, to Cao Xueqin's grandfather). LYS is more traditional in that most Manchus are depicted as evil, save for that unusual poet Nanlan Xingde.
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Post by kyc on Jul 22, 2020 16:15:57 GMT
once i asked my online friend , if in Jin Yong's world the strongest character should be Dugu Qiubai and Sweeper Monk, what about LYS'? he gave me his heroes ranking version; 1. Zhang Danfeng - Pinzong Xiaying Lu 2. Jin Shiyi - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 3. Qiao Beiming - Lianjian Fengyun Lu 4. Yue Mingke - Baifa Monu Zhuan 5. Meng Sintong - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 6. Lu Suniang - Jianghu San Nuxia 7. Lian Nichang - Baifa Monu Zhuan 8. Ling Meifeng - Qijian Xia Tianshan 9. Tong Xiaolan - Jianghu San Nuxia 10. Li Shengnan - Yunhai Yugong Yuan of course it's just for fun. but what is your opinion? This friend of yours must be quite well read. I haven't read Yunhai yet, but agree that Zhang Danfeng in Lianjian Fengyun Lu is the best fighter so far. He still defeats Qiao Beiming handily despite Qiao reaching an insane level in his unorthodox skills. Qiao Beiming is the villain par excellence, so must be on the list. I don't care for anyone from The Three Heroines. Lü Siniang's kungfu is I believe overestimated. The best fighter(s) in Pingzong Xiaying Lu is not Zhang Danfeng, but Zhang's grandmaster Xuanji the Hermit (玄機逸士) and his arch-opponent Shangguan Tianye (上官天野). So they must make it to the list too. Shangguan Tianye's skills are on a par with Xuanji. Although Xuanji invented the twin swordplay, they still can't defeat Shangguan Tianye.
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2020 5:34:14 GMT
Well, of course, you can't expect a benevolent emperor to be as benevolent as saints or sages; they're politicians anyway . But what JY portrayed KX in Lu Ding Ji - is pretty much accurate in big pictures (but not 100%). For example, when KX said that he had to be careful in giving execution since once a head rolled on the ground, there's no turning back. That's truly KX's word that is also written in his valedictory. He's probably a Chinese emperor who gave a very few death sentences (Including all the rebels and corruptors, in total were less than 300 And that was a very low number compared to all other emperors before or after him). He spared Zeng Chenggong's, Geng Jingzong's, and many of the three feudal lords descendants since he believed that many of them were not directly involved. Wu Sangui rebellion was too great and it took more than ten years to quell the rebellion that in the end Kangxi decided to mutilated his dead body as a warning to those who want to rebel. In real life, KX also showed mercy to Oboi (but in Lu Ding Ji, he kind of implicitly agreed and approved WXB to kill Oboi), and also restored Suksaha descendants. He also against slow slicing sentence and never sentenced nine kins termination. For those points, it's enough for him to be called a benevolent ruler, a Sheng Zu 圣祖 Yeah,it's kind of funny that LYS gave so many good images on the minority tribes (Tibetan, Uyghur, etc) but not to Manchu
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2020 5:38:16 GMT
once i asked my online friend , if in Jin Yong's world the strongest character should be Dugu Qiubai and Sweeper Monk, what about LYS'? he gave me his heroes ranking version; 1. Zhang Danfeng - Pinzong Xiaying Lu 2. Jin Shiyi - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 3. Qiao Beiming - Lianjian Fengyun Lu 4. Yue Mingke - Baifa Monu Zhuan 5. Meng Sintong - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 6. Lu Suniang - Jianghu San Nuxia 7. Lian Nichang - Baifa Monu Zhuan 8. Ling Meifeng - Qijian Xia Tianshan 9. Tong Xiaolan - Jianghu San Nuxia 10. Li Shengnan - Yunhai Yugong Yuan of course it's just for fun. but what is your opinion? Nice list. But I wonder if Lian Nichang is inferior to Lv Siniang. And if Li Shengnan is inferior than Lian Nichang. I wonder among LYS's heroines, who was the best.
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Post by soengyee on Aug 12, 2020 1:21:02 GMT
IMHO I don't think Lian NiChang is inferior to either women. Like kyc I think Lu Siniang's martial arts is overrated, and although Li Sheng Nan's skills become superb (after learning Qiao Bei Ming's skills), and manages to defeat Tang Xiao Lan it comes at such a high cost (her life). Lian NiChang has demonstrated many feats during her lifetime that's it's almost hard to believe. At the beginning she deals with Tie Feilong and her inner power is weaker but she manages to hold her own. He even admits he might not be able to beat her in terms of sword skills. Later on she duels with Red Flower Demon (this fight is a bit unfair as she had sparred with Tie Feilong right before this and Lian NiChang was wearing protective armor) and doesn't lose even though she is far below her in skills. In fact she is still standing and barely injured.
Later on she duels with GongSun DaNiang again and her skills become even more formidable than the last time they duelled and GongSun DaNiang herself was admiring her opponent the whole time. She must have practised a lot and of course Tie Feilong had taught her a thing or two during their travels together (she become his god daughter). But the fight that takes the cake is when she fights 3 against 1 verses Murong Chong, Ying XiuYang and (I think it is Zheng HongTai, if I am wrong please correct me). This fight lasts forever and she admits she didn't think she was going to make it out alive. Murong Chong's skills are on par with her, Ying XiuYang is one level below her and the other opponent was weaker than her but still they had her trapped in a circle with no way out. She had to use everything she had learned in her lifetime with incredible speed and agility yet she didn't lose this fight. Of course if the fight had lasted any longer she would have lost all her strength but Tie Feilong eventually came to the rescue (I would say about 7 hours) but even after Tie Feilong joining the fight she was still standing and fighting as well. I think Jin Yong was inspired by this idea when he wrote ROCH (the battle scene at Chong Yang Palace, XLN versus all the opponents). Both women are the fastest characters with extreme agility, both women use swords (XLN uses two and more later while LNC uses one) and both women manage to hold their own against even stronger opponents.
After her hair becomes white she roams the mountains and lives in seclusion while her skills become more formidable with training and becomes almost a legend. She slays a lot of bad guys while travelling from place to place and many people fear her. It is sad she doesn't see Tie Feilong and Ke Ping Ting anymore after this. She does manage to teach a few characters her skills though. I wished she would have had a real duel with Ye MingKe to see who's skills are better but sadly I don't think they ever do if I remember correctly. It would be a real interesting fight because he is also one of the strongest characters in the story. I would say LNC surpassed her master in terms of skills because her master had died during a practice session; she herself never did. Again just this is just my opinion. I believe it was the author's intent for us to believe she is one of the strongest characters in the story; on par with Reverend HuiMing.
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Post by Admin on Aug 15, 2020 13:48:09 GMT
IMHO I don't think Lian NiChang is inferior to either women. Like kyc I think Lu Siniang's martial arts is overrated, and although Li Sheng Nan's skills become superb (after learning Qiao Bei Ming's skills), and manages to defeat Tang Xiao Lan it comes at such a high cost (her life). Lian NiChang has demonstrated many feats during her lifetime that's it's almost hard to believe. At the beginning she deals with Tie Feilong and her inner power is weaker but she manages to hold her own. He even admits he might not be able to beat her in terms of sword skills. Later on she duels with Red Flower Demon (this fight is a bit unfair as she had sparred with Tie Feilong right before this and Lian NiChang was wearing protective armor) and doesn't lose even though she is far below her in skills. In fact she is still standing and barely injured. Later on she duels with GongSun DaNiang again and her skills become even more formidable than the last time they duelled and GongSun DaNiang herself was admiring her opponent the whole time. She must have practised a lot and of course Tie Feilong had taught her a thing or two during their travels together (she become his god daughter). But the fight that takes the cake is when she fights 3 against 1 verses Murong Chong, Ying XiuYang and (I think it is Zheng HongTai, if I am wrong please correct me). This fight lasts forever and she admits she didn't think she was going to make it out alive. Murong Chong's skills are on par with her, Ying XiuYang is one level below her and the other opponent was weaker than her but still they had her trapped in a circle with no way out. She had to use everything she had learned in her lifetime with incredible speed and agility yet she didn't lose this fight. Of course if the fight had lasted any longer she would have lost all her strength but Tie Feilong eventually came to the rescue (I would say about 7 hours) but even after Tie Feilong joining the fight she was still standing and fighting as well. I think Jin Yong was inspired by this idea when he wrote ROCH (the battle scene at Chong Yang Palace, XLN versus all the opponents). Both women are the fastest characters with extreme agility, both women use swords (XLN uses two and more later while LNC uses one) and both women manage to hold their own against even stronger opponents. After her hair becomes white she roams the mountains and lives in seclusion while her skills become more formidable with training and becomes almost a legend. She slays a lot of bad guys while travelling from place to place and many people fear her. It is sad she doesn't see Tie Feilong and Ke Ping Ting anymore after this. She does manage to teach a few characters her skills though. I wished she would have had a real duel with Ye MingKe to see who's skills are better but sadly I don't think they ever do if I remember correctly. It would be a real interesting fight because he is also one of the strongest characters in the story. I would say LNC surpassed her master in terms of skills because her master had died during a practice session; she herself never did. Again just this is just my opinion. I believe it was the author's intent for us to believe she is one of the strongest characters in the story; on par with Reverend HuiMing. I support your argument. I personally believe Lian Nichang was far better than Li Shengnan or Lv Siniang. Probably because I also believe that martial arts tend to decline with time, with Song-Ming Dynasty as the peak, while Qing Dynasty era, martial arts tend to decline.
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Post by siuyiu on Aug 24, 2020 23:12:07 GMT
18 White-Haired Demoness (白髮魔女傳) Wow! I always thought that White Haired Demoness setting was Ming Dynasty. Can't imagine Zhuo YiHang with that pigtail hairstyle :S :S i've started listening to the audio version of the books, and i just want to clarify that the books are set in the latter years of the ming dynasty; at this time, nurhaci is already in power and starting to invade northern china.
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Post by yenchin on Aug 27, 2020 4:01:04 GMT
once i asked my online friend , if in Jin Yong's world the strongest character should be Dugu Qiubai and Sweeper Monk, what about LYS'? he gave me his heroes ranking version; 1. Zhang Danfeng - Pinzong Xiaying Lu 2. Jin Shiyi - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 3. Qiao Beiming - Lianjian Fengyun Lu 4. Yue Mingke - Baifa Monu Zhuan 5. Meng Sintong - Yunhai Yugong Yuan 6. Lu Suniang - Jianghu San Nuxia 7. Lian Nichang - Baifa Monu Zhuan 8. Ling Meifeng - Qijian Xia Tianshan 9. Tong Xiaolan - Jianghu San Nuxia 10. Li Shengnan - Yunhai Yugong Yuan of course it's just for fun. but what is your opinion? There are also the post-Jin Shiyi generation characters but unfortunately I couldn't form any idea since I didn't read much of them. I know Jiang Haitian is quite powerful and heard that Jin's son Jin Zhu Liu is also formidable. I think there's another Mt. Heaven character who rediscovered Zhang Danfeng's (other?) secret manual and powered up, though I'm not clear how he fares on this list.
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Post by siuyiu on Oct 3, 2020 17:26:03 GMT
i finished listening to White-Haired Demoness (though, technically, if you were to properly translate the title in the English style, it should be Grey-Haired Demoness because even when the whole head of hair is white, the English still call it "grey-haired"). Lian Nichang is a remarkable character: fiesty, straight-shooting, no-nonsense, reckless. traits that even some of the most manly heroes don't necessarily have, whether in summation or in degree. the Ghibli character of Princess Momonoke is comparable. LNC is definitely a character not of her time--strong-willed and able to stand her ground in a society that doesn't even recognize women as having rights, never mind being equals. sadly, her tragic flaw is her appalling taste in men. Zhuo Yihang has gotta rank among the weakest, wishy-washiest, stuffiest of male protagonists (no, he does not deserve the title "hero"). and the other guy in the triangle doesn't fare much better than ZYH.
i can see why BFMNZ is so popular--LNC really challenges the status quo and attitudes of chinese society, and not just only in her time. the audience LYS was writing for was equally conservative and gender biased. and it really is interesting how a strong female is handled in the hands of LYS vs JY. female characters of similar temperament to LNC in the JY universe, such as guo fu, zhao min, yin susu, are villified as being bitches. and they are eventually tamed and broken to become obedient wives to their "wise" husbands. the idea of them forming their own martial arts school or their own transportation agency is laughable. "strong" females like JY's huang rong and ren yingying are better off because, right off the bat, they willingly become the strong supporter and morale booster of their love interests. and guo xiang, despite all her potential, chooses to become a nun. yeah, yeah, she heads the e'mei sect, but becoming a nun removes all the threat she could pose on all the macho males.
back to LNC. unfortunately, even if she were to fall in love with a better specimen of the male species, it would be unrequited. i don't see them loving her back; in fact, they'd run for the hills because they're terrified of her. some interesting criticism on chinese society, methinks.
the overall story, as is typical of LYS, is bogged down by too many characters, too many subplots, and the slight tendency to become clogged up in terms of flow. but the historical backgound, as usual, is interesting. got plenty of the tediously long fight scenes that most readers enjoy.
despite the refreshing personality of the protagonist and titular character, i can't say that i prefer BFMNZ to PZXYL, and it really boils down to how infuriating i find ZYH. if only LYS were writing in the 21st century--he would not need to be hampered by the need for a romance in the conventional way. LNC got short-changed because of the readership of the time. but LYS did his best to break the mould, and LNC is definitely a model of possibility. i wonder if any other later wuxia writers dared to create an equally fascinating heroine.
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Post by kyc on Oct 3, 2020 18:31:26 GMT
Busy in the last couple of months, can't help revisiting this forum to offer my two cents on LYS. Good for you, siuyiu - you've finished one of LYS's better novels! BFMNZ is definitely among LYS's best novels cos it has an enthralling heroine, though she's not someone I would describe as "loveable." But JY never created a character like Lian Nichang since he believed in "gender equality", LOL. As for Zhuo Yihang, I actually find him more tolerable than Zhang Wuji, mainly in that he actually changes during the course of the novel. After that fight at Mount Wudang, he hurt his belle so much that he actually abandons the sect for Lian, which I find laudable. Also, LYS makes Lian Nichang ask him a very important question (at least to girls): would he still love Lian Nichang as much if she became old, white-haired and haggard? Credit to Zhuo Yihang, he actually ponders over this and comes up with the right answer (months later). But their love affair is fated to end in tragedy. So it's not like Zhang Wuji who dreams of himself being serviced by four women, and after marrying Zhao Min, will stray after getting bewitched by some 16-year-old barmaid at the foot of their residential hill, once Zhao Min becomes an old hag, LOL. BFMNZ is definitely not free from LYS's many defects, but is still very much worth reading, partly for Lian Nichang. partly for Yue Mingke (why oh why does he become a monk?) Also, if you see the change in Zhuo Yihang, you may actually feel sorry for him. If you create a strong, independent heroine, I guess the other half may have to play second fiddle; such is the case here. But siuyiu, your comments are well appreciated here - it's always good to hear opinions of other readers. If I get less busy, I will try reading Yunhai Yugong Yuan or The Heaven Sword and Dragon Saber by this year.
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Post by kyc on Oct 3, 2020 18:43:42 GMT
i can see why BFMNZ is so popular--LNC really challenges the status quo and attitudes of chinese society, and not just only in her time. the audience LYS was writing for was equally conservative and gender biased. and it really is interesting how a strong female is handled in the hands of LYS vs JY. female characters of similar temperament to LNC in the JY universe, such as guo fu, zhao min, yin susu, are villified as being bitches. and they are eventually tamed and broken to become obedient wives to their "wise" husbands. the idea of them forming their own martial arts school or their own transportation agency is laughable. "strong" females like JY's huang rong and ren yingying are better off because, right off the bat, they willingly become the strong supporter and morale booster of their love interests. and guo xiang, despite all her potential, chooses to become a nun. yeah, yeah, she heads the e'mei sect, but becoming a nun removes all the threat she could pose on all the macho males. back to LNC. unfortunately, even if she were to fall in love with a better specimen of the male species, it would be unrequited. i don't see them loving her back; in fact, they'd run for the hills because they're terrified of her. some interesting criticism on chinese society, methinks. the overall story, as is typical of LYS, is bogged down by too many characters, too many subplots, and the slight tendency to become clogged up in terms of flow. but the historical backgound, as usual, is interesting. got plenty of the tediously long fight scenes that most readers enjoy. despite the refreshing personality of the protagonist and titular character, i can't say that i prefer BFMNZ to PZXYL, and it really boils down to how infuriating i find ZYH. if only LYS were writing in the 21st century--he would not need to be hampered by the need for a romance in the conventional way. LNC got short-changed because of the readership of the time. but LYS did his best to break the mould, and LNC is definitely a model of possibility. i wonder if any other later wuxia writers dared to create an equally fascinating heroine. The case in JY universe is that if you are a woman and you love someone, you will love him forever, never mind how bad or wicked that man is. It's almost as if jilting a guy is like cheating on your husband. Guo Xiang cannot be with Yang Guo, so she conveniently becomes a nun. And yes, the rest of the stronger women cannot steal the limelight from the male heroes. As for female protagonists, Wang Dulu does feature many from time to time, but they are not as independent or powerful as LYS's. Yes, LYS, for all his faults, was way ahead of his times. But then so were many Chinese male writers, like Cao Xueqin and Wen Kang (who wrote Ernu Yingxiong zhuan). JY actually feels much more conservative than many 18th-century Chinese authors.
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Post by siuyiu on Oct 4, 2020 1:02:37 GMT
kyc it takes me a very long time to read chinese novels, esp LYS's. YHYGY is on my to-read list--but i have to have enough free time and energy to tackle it, so dunno when that will be. ZWJ is on-par with ZYH, though JY tries to "rescue" ZWJ a bit by having things happen around him to make him not look like such a weak shit. and being bossed around by 4 strong women, well, of COURSE he's having a hard time being a hero! don't get me wrong: i do enjoy JY's stories (well, mostly), but when it comes to strong female characters and feminist attitude, he is TOTAL FAIL. as is GL, so i have learned to turn a very big, blind eye to his misogyny and just focus on the sarcastic wit and weird plots. alas, if i had to object to all the anti-feminist/misogynistic literature out there, i would be left with very few fiction stories to read. and i did say LNC is remarkable, not loveable and cute.
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Post by soengyee on Oct 4, 2020 2:18:45 GMT
I'm glad you finally got to read my favourite novel of all time jie jie. Now you know why I never shut up about it. lol The fight scenes in the novel are sadly omitted in most if not all TV adaptions. I've watched almost all TV adaptions to date (minus the 1978 version, it's just too old and slow for me I couldn't finish it), and I've yet to find a faithful adaption to this novel. The 1986 version is the closest, and that one is only 70% faithful. Producers tend to make the story very sadistic in TV adaptions and I simply detest it. He E'Hua and He LuHua are always merged into one, is always a third party who loves ZYH in every single adaption and always ends up dying. This formula gets old very fast and it ends up happening all the time. She doesn't even love ZHY in the novel. Having Murong Chong and Wei Zhong Xian as super evil powerful foes for our heroes in the TV adaptions also bores me too. If I had not read the novel I would suspect this is the case in the novel because it happens in all TV adaptions no matter which production or company.
Another huge difference I've noticed between JY's and LYS's main female characters are that in JY's world, once a female falls in love with a man her power and martial arts tend to decrease for whatever reason or they just stop practicing altogether. Such characters like Huang Rong (doesn't get any stronger in ROCH even though she had the most potential given all the people around her and how much knowledge of martial arts she had, why did she not take advantage of it all I wonder?), Zhao Min (she had so much potential given how smart she was and her knowledge from various sect arts), Wen Qing Qing (she is quite weak, and not mentioned in DOMD), Ren Ying Ying ( I don't think she got any stronger or learned anything new, why does only LHC get to learn a whole bunch of new arts, why would he not teach her anything new?), all the female characters from DGSD (do any of the girls even learn anything new like all the guys?) and even Xiao Long Nv herself (I have a very hard time believing she did nothing with her skills for 16 years alone, she would be hella bored and this is why I like the change in the 1983 adaption). They all kind of gave up with martial arts, didn't get stronger and not learn anything new.
In LYS's world such is not the case and LNC is a fine example (another fine example I can think of is Li Sheng Nan from YunHai, Feng Lin and Feng Ying from The Three Heroines). LNC is probably on par with YMK by the end of novel. It might be bold of me to say this but she might be stronger than all the characters I mentioned above combined. Her reputation lingers on for years to come even after her demise. This is one of the reasons why I prefer LYS over other authors, I believe women have the rights to great martial arts and skills as much as men do. Is this an example of sexism?
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